Transcript of Proceedings: United States Senate: Committee on the Judiciary: FBI Oversight: Terrorism and Other Topics

• TRANSCRIPT .OF PROCEEDINGS.
'UNITED STATES'.SENATE
•
COMTIITTEE ON THE JUDICL&RY
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FBI OVERSIGHT: TERRORISIA AND OTHER TOPICS
INFOPIATION CONTAIVED
' UNCLASSIFIED
DATE CE-C7-2009 BY 651'79 D:11-1/STU
WashingtOn, D. C.
May 20, 2004
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MELLER REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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C0 NT E N. T .
- STATEMENT OF: PAGE
:lion. Robert S..Mueller, III, Director,-
Federal Bureau pf Investigation,
Department ofJustice,'WashingtOn, D.
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FBI OVERSIGHT: TERRORISM AND OTHER TOPICS
7
THURSDAY, MAY 20, 2004. .
•, . ALL FOFITATION CONTAINED United States-Senate, :
HEREIN IS TINCLASS,IFIED
. DATE C'7-09-2609 BY 65179 51111/sTT1. Committee on the judiciary,
WaShington, bx. •
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-The Committee met,Tursuantto notice, at .10:40 a.m.,
.in room SD-226, Dirksen Senate 'office Building, Hon. Orrin
G. HatCh, Chairman of the CoMmittee, presiding.
Present:- Senators Hatch, Graspley, .Specter, Kyl,
DeWine, Sessions, Craig, Cornyn,' Leahy,' Kohl, Feinstein,
Feingold, Schumer and Durbin.
Chairman HatCh-S'--We,have''gopiceht,hei.:e.. —An
1.4 is,two more and we oan'finish this markup-in a very Short
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15 period of time, If and .when the Director'arrives, we will
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start'with him until, we get ten and -L will interrupt to .
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finish 'whatever we can on the markup. and-then go back to the
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Director.' That way, we will get at least the.minimuM amount
of work done'that We have to get done toady.
So if the Director is 1et's•get him in here.
Welcome, Mr. Director. We have got nine.here, As soon
.as_we get ten, we will interrupt whatever 'we are doing and
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.do the minimum that we can on the markup today. For
instance, I would like to get. Jonathan W. Dudas out, and we
— 25 have got a couple of other bills that I think' we can report,.
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some of these S:.Res. bills.
Twill be very brief because, as Senators Leahy and
•Schumer 'have been requesting, we want the Committee _to be
able to hear" from Director Mueller this morning. After
Senator Leahy makes 'his opening statement or whatever he
cares to make; • I„1:Want' to conSide'r the noMination 'of Jon'
Dudes as soon as we get ten here to serve as tJnder Secretary .
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of Commerce for Intellectual• Property and Director of the '
United States Patent and Trademax-k Office.- As I understand
it, .there is .no objection to him, but if there: is; we will
meet it at that time.
.1 also understand that,we can moye•three.
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'two.,=.1.•elarici. to '•Worlck'fi'ai7: a •
third recognizing the Brown v. Board of. Education decision,
which we ought to all recognize.' 'I also move that we Can
move S. 1933, the ENFORCE Act. We have come a' long way on
that.
So with that, 1 will turn to Senator Leahy for any
comments be cares to make at this point.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. PATRICK a LEAHY, A U.S. SENATOR.
FROM TEE STATE OF VERMONT
Senator -Leahy. Mr. Chairman, thank you, I .would note ,
that the agenda does not -have the. -Innocence. Protection Act,
even though you and I and Chairman Sensenbrenner and 'other, s.. . •
made a 'commitment to .the country, to the victims', to •Cthers ,
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'I know that Chairman.Sensenbrenner. did. We all had to 0
A3 make compromises cm.it. He moved it in' conservative,
;4 . Republican-controlled House and got an overwhelming vote.
'5 - We shouldt.ry -doing the Same here. We have Made the
' .6 'commitments. He has fulfilled his and it is time for us to
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'7 ' fulfill ours.
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• .8 ' I am glad weare starting with the Director. Last • .. : . •
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9 time ,.we left him, cooling his heels for an hoUr or two.-and I
• 10 think that wasted his time and:ours because, Director, Our .
11 oversight should. bethe most important thing we do up here.' •
12 When it comes to the Justice tepartment,'we.don't do a,great.
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14 ..a ,think the cicadas come by every 17 years and that is
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. 15 about theamount of time we See the Attorney General, but'I
•,16 'am glad you are here. I don't want-.the rhythm of this'
17 :Committee to be . connected to the.17.-year 'rhythm of the
18 cicadas;
19 I have been suippOrtive* of your efforts to more
. 20 .effectively concentrate the FBIgrsources-611 the threats. .
21 and challenges we face 'today. At the time of your
22 . nomination, I was the- Chairman of the Committee arid I' worked
• 23 hard ,to clear the path before you. I have" done 'what I can,
24' since then to help you reform and refocus the Bureau.
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1Then I have concerns, as yoU know, I pick up the phone
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and I share them with you privately; you don't read about
them first in the paper. I very much wanted 'you to succeed
back them,' IWant you to .succeed now, and that is: why. I at
going to raise several very serious .questions:.
5 We haVe also seen the photos from Abu: Ghraib. Torture
6 . is a crime.. It is a prime under the Convention Against
Torture, to Which we are a party. •It is a crime' under our
laws. 'It undermines our' national security. For months, .the
administration has been. warned about this going on I was •
- one of the ones who.wrote to them and warned .them about it.
Very little was done until,the press came .forward with the.
photographs. We were assured that things were fine. ,,144e
-s4ere,giv.e4 self,E4Bxyificrx.4asuriffg:statemettiehat
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out to-be false:
We read'in one article about an ,Iraqi prisoner who said
that after 18 .days of -being hooded and .handcuffed, naked,
-:dowseddw1th water, threatened ,with' rape arid forced- to:sit in
his.own urine, he was - ready to confess to anything. When
ais,interrogators. asked him about Osama. bin- Laden,lie
replied "I am Osama bin Laden, I am-in disguise." He would..
have admitted to .being . anybody else we asked him about.
-The press* accounts from last week suggested that. the
.FBI shied away from participating in or observing certain*
'24 interrogations of terrorism suspects. At the Same tune,-it '
-- 25 is clear from the Berg case that the FBI is operating in
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Iraq. So we 'need more, information about what the FBI'is
doing here..
We have been assured in the thOuSand days since'
4, -September 11 that big changes are taking place'at the FBI.
In our oversight role; this Committee examines actions. -We
learned out of the hearings on September11that there were
very serious' problems at the FBI. And we shoUld.notetbr.
the record what Should be self-evident: you came in only a
feW days before September 11. These problems were there
long before'you arrived.
The -9/11 Commission dealt, the FBI some of the worst
,criticism yet, saying that much of the FBI 'does not work and
a dchate wi' •
right agency for the job- of handling domestic intelligence
and - counter 7 terrorism.
None of us question the professionalism Of your agents.
Many.of them. put their liVea.on the .line everyday.- . -But we -
worry that you have not solved some o•f yoUx Most basic
problems. Your inforMation'te6Inology systems are .
hopelessly out "of date. Thel FBI is 'not much better off- .'
today than it .was ,before 9/11, ::when: the FBI was unable to'do
.a computer search of its own investigative liles.to make
critical links and connections.
By all accounts, the Trilogy solution has been a '
. disaster. I know I had a concern when I went down there and
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'Saw the state of.the,computer -systems at the FBI after we
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Spent.hundreds of millions of dollars. I suspect most small
county sheriffs' department's have better computer Systems.
We put $500 Cr $600 it and it, has got .to be doing'
better. •
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I. could spend the .whole session talking about the
foreign translation program at the FBI - 41, 600 hours.- in
backlogged materials needed' to 'be translated., How do „you
monitor :the unprecedented 1,727 new ,FISA wiretaps- calling" on
. your resources? I asked in March of this' year 'for the
Chairman , to have a full :hearing on this, but we haven' t.
-heard yet about that.
We from.. •t he -Attarre,iy:.-Z-z-met&l.,
it is .amazing on some of these' things that -the FBI; and
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Justice Department are suppdsed to• be doing that. we heat
from General Sanchez and--General Abizaid -earlier than we
hear -from the 'AG'.
. so these are my concerns. On the' computer orie,'I will
-"only mention one thing," after, 9/11, seeing people. listening
on a phone, writing, down notes, handing it to Somebody to
rewrite it, who hands it to sonebody-to stick it in the
file; an inability to even e-mail' t•h -e photographs of the
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'people we are looking fox. My '12-year-old neighbor is in
better shape.
But that is'what you inherited;', that is whet you
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1 * inherited the day you'arrived. You were there only .ifew
days before 9/11. • But after hundredi and hundreds of.
3 • millions of dollars later, 1 still wonder whether the
4 computer systems are in the 21st century.
5 1-have a lot More questions, Mr..Chairman, but I don't
want to hold yoUgup.
Chairman Hatch. 'We will provide time:fOr.that.
We have ten here, so I Would like to at least get the
minimal things done that we can. -
,[Whereupon, at 10:49 a.m., the tominitEee adjourned, to
con•v ene im•m ediately in executive session. The Committee
then 'reconvened at 10::51 a
:Nr••7'..'6.37,`ATEMENT OF H61.4":".TM.IR:G. HATCH,, A i.i surnkTba
FROM THE STATE OF, UTAH'
• • •
.Chairman. Hatch. Now, if I. can, I am going to .make my
opening.remarkshere"this morning on the FBI Director..
Today, we-are Conducting an oversight hearing,on the
IBI's efforts to combat terrorism, as .well as.any other
issues that my colleagues care to bring.up.
- We are going, to have to have order.'
•
I would like to.welcome FBI Director- Robert Mueller,
who will testify before us today. I enjoyed our.meeting
23 earlier this month:and I thought it was very productive.
24 many of you'know;'Director Mueller started;his job one week
25 prior to 9/11. And -at that time, althOugh the FBI .was the
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the FBI into-the 21st century.
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The challenges that he has undertaken,are.ambitious
and, of course,. Cannot.be completed ,overnight. 'In an. agency
that has 56 field offices,:over 400 satellite offices, 52
overseas offices,.(and employs over 28,000 people, it is *
impossible.to 'know what is going on in 'every 'Place at every
'moment. Yet, Director Mueller had Made it his busineds.to
find out where the trouble 'spots are and to take .every
.measure to resplve::pr91:astrp.;
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,to Seek outside expertise,' when necessary; to, address these
issues..
The FBI's number one priority since 9/11 has. been to
protect the American_people froth.another.terrorist*attack.
In,the sUbsequent'.two years' and eight Months, 'the 'FBI 'has'
sucCeeded. in that gOal. Sine September11, 2001, more than
2,000. A.1.Qaeda leadeis and foot'soldiers havelpeen taken
into custody around the globe. 'Nearly 200 Suspected
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terrorist associates have been charged with crimes in the
United States, and as many as '100 terrorist attack 6 or plots
have been broken up .worldwide.
As we all know, before September 2001'we had
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subject of intense Criticism and media 'coverage, Direct-or
Mueller was undaunted 'and took the job head-on. Over the
lastthree.years, I think he haS.accepted the challenge of
transforming the FBI and has made every effort to help. usher
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1 communications challenges between the laW enforcement
community arid the intelligenCe,coMmunity. Sections 203 and 't
218 of the USA PATRIOT Act, which are:due to expire on
December 31, 2005, have been instrumental in- breaking down
the artificial Wall of non-communication between- the
intelligecommunity.and the law enforcement community.
By facilitating and encouraging' increased comMunication
amOng.Federal agencies, the USA PATRIOT Act has paved the
way for many of the cpordiriation initiatives that Director
Mueller'has undertaken. .Perhaps the greatest consequence of .7
the tearing down of the. wall is that it has set the stage
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for ,a new culture of.cooperation within the Government.
* * Be, fore 9/11 FeaeraJ, tate_anelocAgelicies..tended . ..,• . -7 •
to operate individuallyt It takes time -to:change-long-held,
. cultural, mores and to ensure that everyone is sharing. .
information as they ,should. But Director Mueller has taken
several key steps in the right direction. TOday, the FBI
* andthe.CIA.are integrated at ,virtually .every level of
'oper•.a.-t.i • ons. - Under"Director'Mueller's leadership, the FBt
'created the National Joint terrorism Task Force, which works
with the FBI's newly created-Office of Intelligence to
'coordinate interagency intelligence-gathering. activities and
to act- as a,liaison between FBI headquarters and local .
JTTFs:
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The FBI is also .involved in the terrorist Threat
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Integration Center, which was established. last.May,at the
,direction'of President Bush. It:coordinates Strategic
analysis,ofthreats"based. upon intelligence from the various
agencies: -In additidn to all this, 'the FBI sends out weekly
intelligence •bulletins to over 1,700 law enforcement
, ,.... , .. . . . . . ,
agencies -and 60 Federea agencies. So I am looking forward '
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to hearing morevebout'these areas.during. this hearing.
Theie impressive accomplishments notwithstanding, the
FBI still faces some very serious challefiges.".Let me. start
by commending.Director Mueller .for taking on the herculean
task .of modernizing theinfOrmation'technology systems at .
the FBI, a project which we, all know as"Trilogy: It is not
an easy task to-qapate both local and, wide-area
and to install 30,000'new desktop comPuters. But you.have.
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• 15 adcomplished that,and.I want to ccingratulate you for haying
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.17 On another 'note, I know that the FBI,- like.most Federal_
18 agencies;.is facing.the .challenge 'of finding.qualified.'
19 linguists. ,While the demand for linguists in various
20 dialects—Arabic,. Farsi, Pashto, UrdU and other Asian and.
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MiddleEastern languages—.continues to.be in high demand,
.22 am heartened to hear that the FBI has added nearly 700
23 translators sine .Septembet 20. 01.
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24 ram reassured that the FBI'has exacting standards,
25 that 65 percent of its linguist applicants.are screened out
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by ar series xxffgualificatiot tests, and that the'FBI has
qualitycontrol'measures in place to ensure thatthe:.
• translations are accurate and, complete.
Although 'I recognize that the FBI . . 'needs tO-.hiremore
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'translators to meet their growing demand, I appreciate that '
, you, Director .M ueller, have adOPted an aggressive ,
, recruitment Strategy, advertiSing iii. both 'foreign-language
and mainstream media, and targeting foreign. language,
departments at%American'uniVersities, military outplacement
posts and'local ethnic' communities: I also appreciate that
you' have prioritized tasks So that the most significant.
counter-intelligence assignments are done first, often
14:thin:12hou'rs.. I,?..Ook.orward tojlearingimoz4::•pn this
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In the interest of brevity, I Will submit 'the rest of
my remarks' for- the record..
[The prepared statement of:Chairman Hatch follows:]'
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•Ch airMan Hatch:- ,Director- Mueller,' we will turn to
Senator Leahy for .a point and then we will turn to'you for •
•an y'comments-you care.to. make.,
Senator Leahy. .You know, thereis so puch.gOodlthat
has happened at the FBI under Director Mueller's tenure, but
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there is so much left to.be done.. - There are two phases of
.Trilogy, as • you ,1 that were completed, 'I think,
So FBI agents can actually send e-mailS to each
other. This is not a thrilling accomplishment,in.this age.
.I- haVe,got a- &-year-old grandson who sends me e-mails. This
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is not something that we should really say is a great
accomplishment that FBI agents can e-mail each other, $5 to.
.13 . $600millt.gulater.. .
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14 Iheautomated case system, the same system that was -'
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15 part of the equation Of intelligence and law enforcement, •
16 • failure in 2001, as still the. primary IT tool for agents..
We are told that .a virtual case'file would mean the end of
• 18. 'agency, reliance on' paper files which seam to get lost, and
19' , so on. 'We should take a look at the May 2004. report of the
20 'National Academy of. ScienCes which says that this virtual
21 . case tile is not designed to, and it will not meet the .E13/!s.
22' .counter-terrorism and counter-intelligence needs. This is a
23 'big agency, and I realize that there are areas of security
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. that are heeded, but thiS is too slow.
Thank you,•1Mr. Chairman.'
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Chairman Hatch. Thank you..
1,4t's hear what Director'Mueller hag to say.
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STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT S. MUELLER, III,
DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU-OF INVESTIGATION, U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, WASHIWTON,,D.C.
Mr—Mueller. ,Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
and also thank yoU, Senator Leahy, and thank yoU; members of
the Committee for having me here today and giving me an
:oi3portunity to update iiou on what I.be/ieve is substantial
progreAS we have made Inthecounter7terrarism and the
intelligence arenas, as well as to advise the COmmittee on
the effectiveness of the USA PATRIOT Act in*the war on
terror. ,
Before I do begin, however, I would like to acknowledge
-Successes. over the past-
•
years would' have been possible without the ek.traordinary,
efforts of our:partners'in State, IoCal and municipal law
enforcement, aS. well as-Our counterparts'from around the
world.
, •
,In addition, the Muslim-Atherican, the Iraqi-American :
and the Arab-American communities have contributed
,substantially to any success that'we will haye had in the
war on terror in the United States. And on:behalf of the.
PEI, I would like to thank these communities- for their
assistance, as well as their ongoing commitment to
.preventing acts of.-terrorism. The country owes them a debt
of gratitude.
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9 Many of o4r,counter-terrorism successes are the direct
3:0' result of'a/number of 'PATRIOT Act. provisions, some of which-
11 are scheduled to sunset at the end of next year. I do
12 believe it is vital to our national security'to.keepeach-of
these provisions intact.' Without r„ ;“the
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forced back into pre-September 11 practices, attempting to
15 fight the way on terror with One-hand tied.behind our back.
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16 • Lei .Me give you Several examples that illustrate the -
17 :importance of the PATRIOT Act to our'counter-terrorismand
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our counter-intelligence efforts.. -First and foremost, the
PATRIOT Act, along with the revision' of the Attorney
-General's investigative guidelines and - the.2002 decision of
the foreign intelligence surveillance court tore down the
'wall that stood between the.intelligence officers of the
United States and the criminal.investigatorisi who would be
responding to.the'same terrorist-threats.
• ' 'Prior to September 11, if a court-ordered criminal.
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Mr. Chairman; I'would'first like to acknowledge that
the progress that the FBI haS made in reformihg our counterterrorism
and intelligence programs is due in .no small. part
to the enactment of_the;USA PATRIOT Act. For over two-anda.-:
half years, the'PATRIOT Act has proved extraordinarily
beneficial in the war on terror and it-has changed the way.
We in the FBI, as ,well as we in -the intelligence community,
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working on the criminal case could riot share that
information with age-n t.s working-on the intelligence case.
And as important, if not-more important, the opposite was
also true that the information could not be shared from an
intelligence investigation lo a criminal
This increased ability to share information has
disrupted terrorist operations in their early stages such,
as the POrtland .7 cell, and has led to numerous arrests,.
prosecutions and convictions 'in terrorist/caseS.. Because,. '
the FBI-can now share information freely with the' CIA, with
the NSA and with a host' of other .Federal., State, local and
„,,,Antnational partners, our resourcepepsed mere . • .. •... •
effectively, ourinvestigations are conducted more
efficiently, and American is immeasurably safer as a resulX:
We just cannot afford to go back to the days when agents and
'prosecutors were afraid to share ' information,.
. '
The PATRIOT 'Act also - updated the law. to match current' *.
technolagy. So 'we no longer- have to fight a 21st century'.
battle with antiquated weapons. Terrorists exploit modern' .
technology such as the_internet and cell phones to condudt
•an d to conceal their activities. The PATRIOT'Act leveled
the playing-field, allowing investigators to adapt to these '
'..modern technologies. . -
Today,-court7aPprOved roving wiretaps allow
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- investigators to conduct electronic surveillance on a •
particularlsuspect, not a particular telephone. This
technique has long been used to investigate crimes such as
drug-trafficking and.raCketeering. In any world in which it
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is standard operating procedure for terrorists to rapidly
Change locationb and to switch cell- phones to.evade.
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surveillance, terrorism- investigators must have access to
. the same tools".
Today,-Federal judges have the authority to issue.
search- warrants that are 'valid outside the issuing judge's
district in terrorisminvestigators. In the past, a court
could Only issuea Search warrant for:premises Within the
and'
terrorist networks often.span multiple districts. The
PATRIOT Act also permits similar .search warrants for
•
electronic evidence such as-e-mail.
In a final'example,.Mr. Chairman,' the PATRIOT
expanded our ability to pursue those who provide .Material
support or resources to.terrorist Organizations...Terrorist
networks rely on individuals for fundraising, procurementof.
weapons-and aXplosives, training, lodiStics and recruiting.
. By criminalizing the actions of those who would provide,
channel or direct 'resources to terrorists, the- material
Support statutes provide an effective tool to intervene at
the earliest possible stage of terrorist planning.• This
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allows*the FBI to arrest. terrorists and their supporters
before their deadly plans can be carried out.:
As an example, the FBI's San:Diego office• recently
conducted an investigation in which the subjects of the •
. . investigation negotiated with .undercoyer laW enforcement,
officials for the sale of heroin and hashish'In exchange, for.
tz
Stinger anti-aircraft missiles. AccOrding,to the subjects,
the missiles were'then to be sold to Al_Qaeda.
Following. a meeting with undercover agents in Hong Kong
'Eo finalize the purchase; the subjects'were arrested by the
- Hong Kong pol-i c•e , working in conjunction with our legal
attache overseas, and subiequently-they were extradited to
i ::;Sal.,: lie ,=as ~o ,.only :dsaes .this :ra iii' h13gk t+ Elie :3 Tip (5E.E-- a.*i i
of our OverseaSpartnershii)s,-but also the value. of the
material support provisions. which allow' proSecutors to
charge subjects and to secure guilty-.pleas and convictions.
Mr. Chairman and members 'of theominitteelthe
Amportance•Of the PATRIOT Act as a valuable tool '1n the war
against terrorism:canuot.be overstated.,:It is criticalto
our present and our future ,success: By responsibly using
. .
the statutes provided by Congress, we are better able to
investigate and prevent terrorism an.d protect innocent .
while at' the same time. protecting civil liberties.
Let me turn just for a, minute to the progress the.
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-- 25 Bureau has made in strengthening and reforming our•counter-
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.1 terrorism'and intelligence programs, doing so to support its
2 „number of priority, that. of preventing- another terrorist
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3 attack. '-Today,., the ,FBI- is taking full advantage Of our dual
.role as both a law enforcerhent, as well as an intelligence'
agency. Let me give ' you a few'-examples of the progress we
have made.
We' have' more than doubled 'the number _of coUnter-•
•
terrorism agents, intelligence arialYsts-and linguists. We
•.
expanded . our Terrorism Financing 'Operations Program, which
is dedicated to identifying, tracking and cutting off
terrorist funds.'
12 We created the • CounterterrOristri Watch at. FBI.
,!..:.Headoluarters to receive fix = information;- AroUl.ld ed6-:
to assess the credibility. and urgency of the information,
and to task appropriate FBI divisions to take action,
16 We'expended. the number/of Joint Terrorism Task-Forbes
from 34. to 84 nationwide and established; 'es, Mr -Chairman, •
you pointed out, a National joint Terrorisai Task Force- at
.. • -
FBI Headquarters. The task force is to serve as a conduit.
20 Tor threat information to the 1oCal' Joint Terrorism Task '
21 Forces and to the 38 participating agencies, ' including, I
'might add, the Capitol Police..
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We, have created and refined new information-sharing
systerda such as the' Netional. Alert System that'
electronically links us with 'our State and local laW
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enforcement partners.. Lastly, we have sent approximately
275 FBI executives to the Kellogg School of 'Management at
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:4 leadership and strategic change within a large organization.
Recognizing that a strong, .enterprise-wide-intelligenceprogram
is critical to Our success across all
•investigations, we have worked to develop.a'strong
. Northwestern University to receive training on executive
intelligence capability and to integrate intelligence into
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-every investigation and operation across the FBI.,/
We established the Offibe 'Of Intelligence, under the
direction of Maureen Beginsky; our Exeputive.Assistant
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Director for Int.elligence. Maureen, as "most of you know, '
a- Nti&iáI A.-gency. ' •
.The Office of Intelligence sets. unified standards, policies •
• • and training for.analysts, those analysts.who examine
.intelligence and :ensure. that it is shared .with. our law
• enforcementt - aid-our intelligence partners': The Office of
Intelligence has already Provided over 2,-600 intelligence,
reports-and•other documents for the President, the members
of the community 'and also tor Congress.
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We established a formal analyst training program and we
are accelerating the hiring.and training of analytical .
personnel and developing career paths for analysts that are
commensurate with their, importance to the mission of the
FBI.
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We'developed ail:d'arein'the..process ofexecuting..
concepts of'operationS governing all aspects of the
intelligence process, from the identification :of"
intelligence requirements to the methodology:for •
intelligence. assessment,'to the drafting and forMatting of •
intelligence. products. • •
We established a reguirementS-process to identifylaps.
in what we know, and to develop collection strategies to
fill those gaps. We established.RePOrts Officers positions
10 and-Field Intelligence Groupin.every One of'ourfield'
.11 offices, whose members review investigative information not
.12. -only for use in investigations in that field office, but '
13- .:',:g15't67-ipseminate't1-.Itormation throligii66t–th4-7Farand.
. 14 among our law enforcement and intelligence community'
15 partners.
With these changes in place, the Intelligence Program.
is established and' growing. We are now,turning to the last
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- 18 `structural.step incur effort to,build an intelligence
.capacity. In March we authorized. new procedures goVerning
the recruitment, the training, career .paths and evaluation
of 'our special agents, allof.which are focused on
.developing intelligence expertise among -our agent
population., •
The most far-reaching of these,changes will be the new
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intelligence processes. Under this plan*new agents will
spend an initial period of. time familiarizing themselves
with all aspects of the Bureau-including intelligence •
collection and analysis, and thengo-On to specialize :in.
.counterterrorism, intelligence or another operational.
:program:
8 The central.part.of this initiative will be an *
intelligenCe officer certification program :that-will be
available to both analysts and agents, and that program. will
be modeled after and have the same training,and:experience
requirements - as the existing prOgraMa,in.the intelligence
communit-y.-„.•
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14 All the progress that theFBIhas:made:on its
15 investigative fronts rests .upon a strong foundation -of
16 information technology. .Over the past two7and-a-half years
37. the FBI has made a substantial effort.tpLoVerhaul our
18 4mforMation•teChnology, and we, I believe,- Mr. Chairman, :an
Y19 *Senator Leahy, have made substantial ,prpgress.
. 20. Mr: chairman, my prepared statement provides greater,
detail,on the progress we have made•in upgrading. our
22* .information technology,, and I.wilI.not go into the details
_23 here. I will :say, however,'that we have encouhtered
24 problems,. setbacks regarding the deployment of,our
infrastructure known .as Full Site Capability that was.. due
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1 :come on last OctOber: :The contractor•indicated that the
contractor would not be able'to.provide it by then.. We went
back .and renegotiated,' and that Full:ite,capacity was
- completed on April 30th- of this year.:
We are on track to deliver elements of virtual case.
file capabilities by the end of this-year.. Weare in
::negOtiations- Withour.Contractor on fini4iing,out that'last
-.Tart of the Trilogy Project.
Andas, Senator Leahy, you have pointed out, the
National Research Council of-the-National Academy of
:11 Sciences released a report reviewing ,out program, released •
12 it I believe last week or the week before. we commissioned , . . -
13 this review as,y.rtr,p, of.ourQngoing_efforts. to improve our',
-14". capabilities to,asseinble, analyze and disseminate
• 15. •investigative-and operational data, both internally 'and
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16 externally, with other intelligence and law enforcement:
17 ' agenCies. .Many of the report's'recomMendations have already.
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18 •been implemented or are a.work in progress, and my
— ls understanding is that the-Council is looking at those .
'20 portions• of.the recommendations that have carried out "and
21 ' will be issuing a suppleMentary. report.:
22 will again make the point that the FtI has repeatedly'
.-•
,23 _sought outside evaluation and advice throughOut its IT
•.. 24 modernization efforts, and we will continue to do so.
Let me conclude, if I might, Mr. Chairman, by saying.
suia sr.poRreia
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that with the toolsproVided by the PATRIOT Act and with our
counterterrorism, intelligence and information technology
initiatives "firmly in place, the FBI is moving steadily.
fo.r w-a rd, always lOking for Ways to evolve and -improve-so
that we remain several steps ahead of -our enemies: We are
looking at way,s•21- to assess and adjust our resource needs
based on threats,in.order to ensure. tWe have the -
personne.l • and resources to fulfill-our:miSeion.s
Mx: Chairman, let me- finish by saying that Iappreciate
this Committee's continued support, -and I appreciate the
opportunity to be here this morning, and am_happy to
answer any-questions you might have.
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Chairman Hatch. Thank you, .Mr..Director: ram-going
to reserve my" 14 minutes and turn ta:the Democratic -Leader.
on. the Committee first for questions. We are going to have
One 10-minute round with every Senator given ,10minutes if
•
he or she determines that is essential.
....'SenatOr:Leahy,
• , • Senator Leahy. . .Thank'youi:Mr.: Chairman, Again, -tam
glad that we are .finally having thiS hearing. . I read the
press reports that make itVery: clear that the FBI is
operating in Iraq. I think a lot of us on the Committee on .
both sides would like to know more about what the FBI is:
doing in Iraq.' I will.send,you some written questions which
.
Maj. be basicaIlythis: How Many agents do we' have in Iraq?
Howlong.have they been there? What is their mission? .
• .
The reason I do this,beCause the Assistant Attorney
General for the Criminal Division was here two weeks ago.-
He-'Suggested the Department was.not:currentlY investigating
the alleged abuses at Abu Ghraib.- Iwill submiticuestione
to yoU about'that,too. But let me ask you this Are you
now investigating the abuses-at Abu Ghraib Prison?,-
Mr. Mueller. We are not investigating those abuses.
My understanding is that the military is investigating those
abuses.
Senator Leahy. Yo101ave.not received any referral from
;the 'Department of Defense involving .the nonmilitary
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contractors?
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Mr. Mueller. We have not -received a referral.
. 'Senator Leahy. _How 'many FBI agents are in Iraq?:
. •
• .:Mr. prefer to. provide that ,infOrrnation,
'I could, Senator, 'off the record.' . .
Senator Leahy. All right. On May 13th the New York
,g
Times reported the interrogation methOds employed by. the CIA
are so severe that Senior .officials of the Federal Bureau of.
'InvestigatiOn .haVe. directed its agents to stay out of many
of the interviews of the high-level.detainees'.. The article
. -
also• states. that, "FBI officials have advised the Bureau's
_Director, Robert Mueller,. that the interrogation techniques :
lwhich - would: be- prohibited. in Criminal -Teases 'could CompromiSe
their agents in future criminal- cases."
- . Did the FBI direct its agents.tO stay out ot:the CIA
interviews of high-level .detainees because of the brutality
of the interrogation Methods being 'used? •.
Mr. Mueller, Senator, it is_the FBI's policy to
prohibit interrogation, by force, threats of force: or
. •
. coercion. Where we have conducted interviews, we have
adhered. to, that policy.
Senator Leahy. More specifically though, my question
'was: did the FBI direct its agents to stay out. of CIA
interviews specifically because' of the brutality of '.the
' interrogation methods being -used? Yes or no.
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Mr..Mueller: Cur agents--
Senator:Leahy, "That is what-the press.reported.
.Mr. "Mueller. Our agents are under direction ,to adhere.
- • . •
.to.the training.and the direCtions that they have had in'
terms of how to handle interviews, In the case where we *
lave been handling interviews, particularly over in.traq,'-it,
has been done.according to our standards and• there has been -
:no waiver of that.
Senator Leahy. I will ask.the question for the third
time. Did the FBI direct its agents to stay out of'the.CIA.
interviews of high-level detainees because of the.brUtality
of the interrogation methods"being used? "Yes, or no?
.
Mr..Mue•iler'. The FBI hasL-
• Senator Leahy. It.has been reported--
".Mr.. Mueller. :Cf I might, sir,".theVni has direCtedfits"
• . . . ,
.agents to conform to its policies with regard to the
, handling of .interviews, whether it be here.in the 'United
;States or overseas, :and to the extent "the.t an agent believes
that interviews were not being conducted according to the
"standards of the FBI, that agent was not:to paiticipate in'
those interviews.
Senator Leahy. Let me ask" you just for the •foUrth
time, for the fourth. time. Did the FBI direct its agentS to
stay out of- the CIA interviews of high-level detainees
- because "of the'brutality of the interrogation methods being,
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•Mr: Mueller..
Senator Leahy,. Thank you.
Mr. Mueller. But I.will'saY that--again,--I will go
back--and the way the question is phrased, no, but I want tobe
absolutely clear that. agents of the 'FBI were-t.O ..
•
'participate where they believe that the interrogations would.
be done according to the standards that we have set in the
• • •
FBI.
Senator Leahy. Were they told to-anticipate that those
- standards.mould not be ;follOwed in CIA--
Mr. Mu. eller._ *MD. My understandins.is'that there are-
Standards that, have. been established by oh-ers:legally.that
may well. be different from the FBI:standards,.and if that -
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were the case and there were
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a departure from thePAI
standards, we were not to participate.
Senator -Leahy. What others?--•
,Mr. Mueller: What-others?
Senator Leahy. 'You said that there are some
interrogations that do not follow your'standards.--s,W t.
others? By whom?
Mr. Mueller. DOD and CIA.
',senator Leahy. , That is basically .my So' it
is true the FBI agents are--
•
Mr. Mueller. But my •saying'that, let me' add, Senator',
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that that%does
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not necessarily mean that those standards .
-were not—that.those standards. were• unlawful. What I am.-
saying is that they may not.conformto what we--the standard
that we usein.conducting inVestigations'In the FBI.
. Senator Leahy. 'Your standardS are set out, and agents
areinstructed not to take steps that would compromise them
. •
in a criminal case; is that a fair statement?
. Mr. Mueller. 1 think that is part of it, yes. But. •
also, I mean, for a variety of reasons, our standards
relating to interviews and interrogations are based on our'
belief on what is effective, our belief on what is
appropriate, our. belief on--and part'of the footing of that.
•- ,.• •
is; quite obarioUsly,; the fact'that'we,would have to :testify
in court On standards of- voluntariness. and the like. 'Sp.our
29
15 standards may. Well be different than the standards applied . . • ,
by another entity in the United:States: .
•Senator Leahy. And haveany of-your,'agents encounteied
objectionable practices involving the treatment of prisoners
ta.Iraq, Afghanistan or Guantanamo?
. Mr. Mueller.- We have conducted investigation to
..determinewhether sor not any of our agentS in Iraq were
.aware.or-was'awaxe of the practices,that we have seen inthe.
media, practices between I believe October 1st and December'
31st of '03, and we have interview each. of the agents that
conducted, may have conducted interview in the Abu Ghraib
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'prison, 'and none of'thobe witnesses abuses such as we'have
seen.
°Senator Leahy. Let, me ask you this: Is the FBI
conducting any investigations involving handling of
prisoners in Guantanamo?
Senator' Leahy. - None?
•'M r..Mueller. We' are" not conducting'' anyinvestigations
-into the handling--'
Senator Leahy, Have you. Have you 'conducted 'any?
Mr. Mueller. No.
Senator' Leahy. And you are not 'doing any in Iraq?-
,Mr„:Mteller. We are' not. . .
.Senator Leahy. How abOut'Afghanistan?. -'"
- Mr: Mueller. No, -not to My knowledge. We .are not
'conducting investigations into the.handling of prisoners ineither
of those three Countries. My .understanding is. that
'-there is a referral,• there has been "a referral to JuStice by
•
the CIA,'which I think has been made,pUlic, of Certain
issues, but the investigation has.been conducted by'the.CIA
Inspector. General.
SenatOr Lehy So if 'they refer this to Jilstice,yOu
"do not get involved in an investigation? I mean does it
sort of sit there in Justice or what?
Mr. Mueller.. No I think if there are referrals and
auszaREEPMmtilco..,me.
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,Justice believes that we. are. the appropriate investigating
body, they would .ask us to conductan'inVestigation.
Senator Leahy. ‘ So even though they have had cases .
referred to them by the CIA, they .nbt set them -onto
yoUT
Mr. Mueller,. • -My understandin.g is ,the investigations
had been'. conducted tip date by the Inspector General'S
Office.
9 Senator Leahy: The same New York Times article says
1O the tIA's coercive interrogation techniques were authorized
• .11 by a set of secret rules adopted by the administration after
12 • the 9/11. attacks for , the interrogation .of high-level al_
13 ' ,Qaeda prisoners. The article' states that.theSe rules- were..
14 endOrsed by both the justice Department and the CIA. Were
15 . yOu or anyone else at the FBI consulted about these rules?'
:1.6 .Mr. Mueller. I do not believe so,
17 Senator Leahy: ' Did you or- anyone -else at' the -FBI
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endorse 'these rules?
Mr, Mueller. N
Senator Leahy: Youhave no FBI investigations,of.•
military contractors regarding the handling of prisoners in
any of the thtee countries I -have talked about?
Mr. Mueller: Not at this time.
Senator Leahy. Have you had?
Mr. Mueller. No.
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' Senator Lealiy. Do you have FBLat Guantanamo?
Mr. Mueller. Yes.
Senator Leahy.: Afghanistan? -
,Mr: _Mueller. ' Yes.
Senator 'Leahy. And . Iraq?
Mr. Mueller. Yes.
Senator Leahy.
for .the record?
Can you,.subMit: the information, on that
Mr. Mueller: In terms .of numbers?
Senator Leahy. Yes.
.11 Mr. Mueller. YeS. I .Would like,.to--not in .open
12 record, but I will absolutely. 'submit. to the :Committee,
f; •
13 but we -prefer' to: keep' it ' not as part of -the Open record:
14 Senator Leahy. Want to. do it for the classified
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15 record.
Mr. Mueller. Yes.
--Senator Leahy. 'I understand.. We . talked about ' the
Trii,ogy Program, and we said that *it ,has .been'uPdated,'
consolidated- and so on'. But we have spent in 'the three
. .
years, since 9/11, $581 million, still.-over -budget, longdelayed.
The -Attorney 'General told Congress the virtual
" .
case 'files are on' schedule 'to be implemented 'by' December. of •
2003: • .You said the same thing in. July 2003 When- you
testified before us. In December the FBI told .my staff it . • .
was delayed until summer..., ,On March 23 . of this year you told
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the Appropriations Subcommittee the FBI is still
2 negotiating.. Today you indicated the elements w6Uld be
'completed later this.-year. What elements and - What do you
mean by elements?
- ,Mr. Mueller. Let me go backe,Senator, The contracts
were.pntered into in the summer of 2001: We have had to'
7 undertake the modernization; givencontracts'were issued and
entered into-,in 2001 prior to. September 11th.' There.is an
.. •
assertion that we have- spent far more funds than were
.earlier anticipated, and that is true. The reason we haVe
spent far more funds is because. we have'changed and adopted
the program ye need to put our information technology where .
" •
'I.E.needs to' be.' We have completed, as Senatbr Hatch pointed
out, a-Substantial portion of the Trilogy Profect, We have
Put in more than 29,000 new computers. We have.putinthe
..local area networks, the !aide area networks; the backdrop',
. the backbone of our system:--
.One of the things we have done that was- not
.19 contemplated when we entered into. the Trilogy Project 'is
20 'early on migrating our databases from 'the old ATA ,base,
% whichis,the foundation of.ACS to which you refer, migrating
22 that data over to modernized databases so 'it 'can be searched'
• 23
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by search engines. That had not been contemplated prior to
September 11th, and we have accomplished that.
•'—:• 25 The upgrade of.our operating systems, which was to be
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completed by October, was not completed by October.. .We 1-14&.•
whatI.believe to be problems with the contractor,in.that
regard, and we went hack,and.we negotiated a difficult
finalization. ofthat contract,'and that was concluded on
April 20th. We are in negotiations with the last contractor.
on'the laSt piece,of this program, the virtual case file,
and my hope an&expectation is:ehat that•mill be, completed
by,theend of this year
But I do not believe,.tathe extent that you did-say
10 that we are not much better off today than we were before,
- •
that that is accurate. I do not believe that is accurate.
'12 I think we are much better off now than we were .before.:'
pOiRt
into the contracts .for the Trilogy Project, it was on a
'three-year timeframe. "I had 'originally, after September
11th, ,asked to move ,it up so'that we .could move.fastei% We
are, - at the end of that_three•-year timeframe, so compared to
.what we anticipated, we- are pretty much online. It was my
. . .
effort, my hope, my expectation that I.could move -up:that'
timeframe some. As it has turned out, I was unable to' do
o, but I do, believe that when we are.Concluded this year,
we - will have the foundation for the cutting-edge technology
-for an organization our size.
Senator'Leahy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate•
your courtesy.
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Chairman Hatch. Thank you, 'Senator Leahy: •
We will.turn to. Senator Grassley.
Senator Grassley. Director.Mueller, Ireally.
appreciate Your work that you and your field agents are
doing in the fight against terrorism. .I.also would like to
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.commend you for "the changes that'youHare making at the
Office of Professional Responsibility. My staffhas.been
briefed on that I may have a few little'things.to follow
up in writing,• but..-I wanted to acknowledge those changes.
The first guestion.deals-ith the progress that the FBI.
is making in general in terrorism financing, and
specifically with the Saudi Arabian .financial.activity. 'I
cha.irea-a Finance liearing'Yestday-Onti1S issue MY:statk
has beet investigating the Riggs Bank situation,' and the
money trail I think is very al-arming. It looks like there
are ,groups. and individuals that have .pretty solid -links-tO
terrorism who got money,fxom the.Saudi Embassy accounts.'at -
Riggs. I am sure. that. the FBI agents on.this case-are
working as hard as they can, but I'worry about political
pressure maybe impeding. Three points 1woUld like; to
21 address,' and I would like to give all three. before you
22 answer.
First, have you or senior FBI officials received any,
presSure or guidance'from other agencies, including CIA,
State Department or the. White Rouse to go easy on the case,
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and if you ever did,.would 'you report that to Congress?
..Second, please .tell'us in,a general sense, becaus&I
-know when you- are dealing.withspecific case you cannot
talk'about that case; but what:kind of activity:or
. .
involvement in terrorism ,financing is the FEI•Seeing from
Saudi nationals and Saudi officials?
Third, what kind of. coordination,and effort is there
• •
from the FBI • to dismantle al Qaeda finaacing.as a whole ai
opposed to specific cases/ especially in. conjunction with
the Treasury Department?
Go ahead.
Mr. mUeller:... As to the first.queStiOn on political' „. •
.preesure, at -no .point in .time have We -received pressure frEim
any other. entity in the Government not to pursue every lead"
where it takes ,We would reject any pressure. It would
not happen. would not deter us from seeking out .any fact.
, .
• that we - need ' to .further our:.investigation.,
We have seen over a period of time SaUdis, Saudi NGOs,
NGOs that are.headed by:Saudis, contributing tO.terrarism.
•
I think that is fairly well known over a.period•Of time.
.early.on established a TerrOrism'Financing Operations
Section that has been 1 belieVe'very successful in
integrating with formerly Customs, as well as with the
Treasury Department, and undertaking a wide range of
.': investigations into terrorist financing, and fmight.also
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say this is one of the areas in, which we work exceptionally
closely with the Agency and others, and'we.have been-.
- su• cCessful.-
•
Lastly, withregard.tothe Saudi S; before 'I turn to al
Qaeda, we have had. ver good cooperation from the. Saudi
.Government•'ov ;e4r1.• t•h e last year.. 14ehave a fusion_cell in
Riyadh looking 'at terrorism.financingi and that has
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augmented:our capabilities to•address this Particular.
• problem. •Looking at the financing of al Qaeda overall; :I do..
believe that our efforts to go into. Afghanistan and remove
Afghanistan as a sanctuary for al Qaeda has had tremendous'
-benefits' in.terms of disrupting their'capabilities to •.
recruit,,to-train, but also disrupting their capabilities tO'
organize. the financing along the lines thatthey•were.able -
'to organize it prior to,.September lith. Al Qaeda.isfragmented..
That does. not mean that there. are' not
.individuals. in this world who aremot Still providing
financing to al Qaeda, but it.-ismore difficult fOr,them..-'
And the efforts of not just the FBI but the other agencies
'in the United States, as well as our counterparts overSeas,
. has had a substantial direct impact on the funding of al
.Qaeda. •
Senator Giassley.', In regard to your last'point,
because I ask in conjunction with the Treasury Department,
has the Treasury Department been involved in those
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investagatiOns?
:Mr. Mueller.. Yes.
Senator Grassley. As .a conclusion on this point, today
Senator Hatch - and I, and 'Senator Leahy,, and SenatOr Max
Bsudus, are sending you,aletter asking to see .Inspection'
DiviSion reports on the FBI's legal attache in.Saudi -Arabia,_
,••e:
' and I'look forward'to•seeing those .reports. You do not have
to comMent•on,that now, but we are sending you that letter;
I would also like to, on a second pointi'figure out why
the FBI is going back in time'and classifying some pretty
basic information that is already in'the public sector in
regard to- classification of informationtha we:haVe.
:briefings. Ms. Edmonds wotked,for the FBI as a translator,
'and was .fired after she reported problems as part of 'the
Committee's legitimate oversight. We looked into that.
I am very alarmed.
The el-mail I have is right here. I am ?Teri alarmed
with. the after-the-fact classification. .On the one.hand-I
think .it is ludicrous because I understand that almost all
of this information is in the public domain and has been
•ye ry widely available. the other hand, tills
. •
r'eCeived in CongreSs from a whistleblower,-Sybil Edmonds'
•
We have,' far instance, a e-mail sent out by the ChairMan
Office last week saying that the FBI is classifying twoyear-
old information the Committee got in two previous
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The result of this retroactive classif••i cati• on'• will be a .
ma6plock in front of congressaOnalCversight.•. and the •
14 victims of a/11 because-I think that lawyers. Want to
.15 Interview Ms. Edmonds. .I think a better solution is for the
16
. -
•
FBI to face up to its problems with translation:.
17 - understand that ,-there ;are tens-of thousands of hours of
18 untranslated material'from this year alone, and that is juSt
19 for Terrorism and Intelligence Committee., So I haVe twO
20 .questions.
• 21 First, who is the primary, decision maker for
22 classification?. Would it be ZUstice Department lawyers-or
23 .operational people at‘the FBI? The second part of this is,
24 low is" this classification supposed to have any credibility
25 when it is'two.years after the fact and all the information,
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classification is very serious because' it- Seems like the FBI
,would be attempting to put a gag order on Congress.
Frankly; it looks like an attempt to impede legitimate
oversight of a seriousproblem at the:FBI, and that makes it
'harder for the FBI's problems'to get. fixed: The so-called
mosaic theory of classification dah probably be applied to
.
just about any- information.
I'do not think this is really-.about national security:-
If it were, the FBI would have done,•this a.very long time
ago, andin.fact, you would, be trying to get information
.back that has already 'been given to us about Ms. Edmonds..
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it seems to me, is in'thepublic domain?
Mr': Mueller. iSenator, I understand your concern about
tlds'particular issue. My 'understanding is that the
information was provided to Congress sometime ago openly,
two years ago, almost two years agof•and that there axe
other areas• of information•that have come out, that-put
together with that information,.may bearon the national '
'security, which-is why that decision was taken. My'
understanding it is a joint decision between the Bureau
.
.and the Department of Justice. .1 can assure you it is not..
in any.way:an effort to impede legitimate oversight inasmuch'
as the information hasbeen provided to Congress'sometimee
back. - •
I might also.add in that context that- as I have..in each
case of a whistleblower in thepast, I have referred the
- • -
matter'oVer.to the Inspector General, and the Inspector
Generalis conducting an investigation into all of these •
allegations. It certainly is not an effort to 'j..n any Way
•in terfere witheither Congress's or •the Inspector General's.
- ,
investigation, and as I have in the.past,- if thare:are
recommendations. that come out. of that investigation, I will •
look at them and for the most part, as I have in ''the past, I
will adopt them.
Senator Grassley. My last question-dealSwrith the
"Chinese spy case in Los Angeles. 'I am not asking you about
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criminal case though because I knOW you are restricted on
that. Former Agent-J.J. Smith recently pled guilty-to what
seems. like a -light-charge. - It does not look likehe -is
'going to get much jail'time. there have 'been some comments
in the'media.abouthow thia.Zooks'like a double.standard and
that has concerned me.becaUse we haVe discussed that in
previous open hearings of'this COMmittee. But I would like
to focus on 'something else'separate from the criminal case,
and I.Would ask two questions.
First, can you tell me:if any internal' FtI misconduct
allegations .have been filed against current or former senior
offi..c..i al• s in Los Angeles or:in headquarters r•e lating to the - .
'Leung, how Leung was handled in other intelligence matters?
And second, are these allegations being. nvestigated by
either the FBI or..the Justice Department?' I am asking this
because I have -received•infOrmatiOn.thattheTBI really did.
not property judge who was responsible for the probleMs of.
the double agent and who was•to blimej
Mr. Mueller. Two things. IMmediately after this came. •
. .
to my attention; I asked for a quick review of individUals
who are still on the chain of command 'in Los Angeles to
determine .whether or not I should take some action
immediately. 'And there were I believe, at least one if not •
more actions taken, as a result of that review..
At the same time though,,I asked the Inspector- General:.
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to conduct an investigation and.the Inspector General has
.been conducting an investigation for. probably. a year now :
, .
into the events of what.happened out in Los Angele's,,and•I
would await the Conclusion of the • Inspector General's report2
to determine.what further steps should.be taken.
• Chairman Hatoh. Senator, your- time is up.
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Senator. Kohl.
Senator Kohl. . Director Mueller, we understand that the
State Department and the TSI are active in,providing
security at the Summer Olympics, *intended to be in .Athens.'
We have heard many athletes e;‹pressing.concerns about their
safety., and itseems that there may be good reasoils'-for, them
•
to be concerned.' A4 you know, Greece'is'close*tal.many
'interests hostile to the United States and the area, and
Greece's borders, particularly those on ,the Mediterranean
Sea are porouS, .these fears are only exacerbated by. the -
numerous.bombing,attacks that have occurred in 'AthenS over
the past year, some of which took: place while yOu were .there
in -November.
Given the situation and -your knowledge of what is .being
'dohe there in terms of. security, what .can you say to ,the:.
American athletes.who are concerned about their safety?
Mr.. Mueller. We are working with the Greek
authorities. .It is the responsibility of the Greek -
authorities to protect the Olympics. They are confident.
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they have put into plaCethe mechanisms to do so. We have
. ,
been and will continue to work with the Greek authorities.
We continue .to monitor the: progress with. regard `to the
Security of the OlYmpics. At this point in time,. as I say,
we continue'to monitor it. and, see what progress is .being
made to assure "that these .0laympicd. are,free from'attack.
. . . .
,think it is too early for any dispositive 'judgment as to. the
substantial gaps in that:Security. To'the extent that we
have identified them over the last several months, months
or so; the Greek authorities are moving to fill those gaps',"
.but.as I say, we are .continuing to monitor the situation
there.
:Senator.Kohl. high.leVel. .concern?:-.
• Mr:.Mueller. Yes. '
•
. Senator Kohl. Do you think that there,is substantial -:
'risk there?
Mr. Mueller. No. When-I say it is a high=level.
concern,'I.think all of Vs _want to make these Olympics the -
safest possible Olympics,: a nd I,know.the Greek authorities'
want. to make these the safest.possible Olympics. They are
em
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21 looking forward to having the Olympics go off without a'
hitch and not only ourselves, but a number of other
23 'countries are working with not only our ambassador, but
24 ambassadors of other countries in Greece, to ensure that
these can be the 'safest possible.. Olympics.
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And when- 'say "high-level concern," it is a concern
because all of .us want to'make these a safe Olympics. and are
willing to do.what.is necessary to- make that happen.
Senator Kohl. 'I's. it safe'. to say that the level Of
security at these, OlyriiPics.will be perhaps higher than have
ever been•seen •In an 101yMpics before?'
. . . .
Mr. Mueller. I. think that is Probably fair to.saY.,
Senator Kohl. 'Director Mueller, the last..time. we saw
each 'other, we discussed a Terrorist Screening Center.
10 would like to say again how 'important'-it is to have one
.11 central watch list for terrorists to effectively. proteCt
.12 against terrorist attacks and keep our law enforcement- alert
. .
. • ,
13 to known terrorists. Such a.list should be available
.14 border security personnel,. State and local lavenforceMent. -
15 and others who are charged with protecting-bur
- 16 You Said,. in March," that you expected a terrorist watch
17 list to' be- fully integrated by 'this 'summer.. -C.am:-you give us
19 an update on Where that is.
'19 .Mr. Mueller. 'It' was fully integrated as of March 12th.
20 Mere was-one integrated list as of March 12th.' The next
,21 step in the growth of the Terrorism Screening Center is to
' 22 make that list accessible directly on-line from each of the
23 agencies.
24 Right now, every one of the agencies.participating in
--'25 the Terrorist Screening.Center has communication to their
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particular fieldS,' and the names come :in, and .then it is run
against the list. By the end of this Year, ,what we want to .
3 be able to do. with appropriate security, quite obviously, .is‘
have the.centralized list, which we do have, accessible: ,,
directly from the field, .so that the 'fiei&does not have to •
come in,totheir,counterpart in•the Terrorism Screening
Center; but can go electronically. right to .the list .and get.'
the information that way, and that is the hext.step of.the
• SM
1
— 2
•
evolution of the Terroist'Screening- Center.
Senator Kohl. Can you assure- us that the.,--SBr does: not
use'anyof the abusive interrogation methods that we have
been reading.about in Iraq here in the United States?
Mr. Mueller. Yes.
Senator Kohl. Does the F.B1 have procedural rules
governing the, interrogation of prisoners captured here-in
the United:States?.
17 Mr. Mueller. Yes.
18 Senator.Kohl. Since September 11th, we, have been
19 collecting more intelligence and-terrorist-related
20 investigations. ,Terrorist organizaticiAs operate in the
21 shadows of our society and are difficult to.detect
eVen.when
22 our counterterrorism.people have all of the information in
23 front of them. Their job is virtually impossible when the •
24 information we do have is not translated"in a timely manner.
' 25 What are you doing at the FBI to develop a long-term
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solution whereby the FBI, can attract adequate numbers of
qualified translators, without compromising security?-
Mr. Mueller. . We. have put into place'Tiger Tdamsf-as-we
call them, over the last year, year_and a half,:tO.bring on
board, first, recruiting and-then'bring an .board numbers of
translators in;the languages where we have been weak- in'thepast.
We are going.to continue to do that and augment our
capability-by seeking to attract and'then hire a number of
thetranslatorEi in these particularly Middle Eastern
languages. We have,more than tripled our numbers of
analysts in some of, the more important categories', such as
Arabic. Where we had, on September 7.-1th,27.9„Arabic Contract:
linguists and'language specialists, wehow.are well over
200. .Farsi,7.-ve had 24,..and.the last count-I :had was 55,
-Pashtu, we had one. we now have at least 10, if' not more. -
Urau,' we had 6, and we are lig to 21.
And so we have enhanced our capability of the'numbers •
of linguists, but we are Still not where we need-to go. We.
lave put into plade a network whereby cuts of -intercepted
conversations, for instance, 'can be /pu shed around the
country to - a language specialist that has a.particular skill
and that, in and of itself, will substantially enhance our
ability to, have our conversations,'our intercepts'
translated.
The one point I would make 'is we have had; as in all
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'things, we have.had to do a triage. .We have had to
..prioritize, and so the priority,,quite obviously,. is
terrorism. To the extent that we have FISA intercepts or a.
4 Title III intercept in any way relating to terrorism, that
•
.5 is the first 'priority, and those conversations, particularly .
.if,they relate.„.to ongoing perhaps operations, are done • '
within I would .say 12 hours.
There are other investigations where, because we do not
have as many linguists as we would like, that it is not
within 12.hours, but, we have investigations, for instance,
going into financing of terrorist Activity and a variety of
terrorist groups, and it does not haVe the same immediacy to
havethat,translated--maybe listened:to, but not translated-
-with the same'immediacy that•we have with regard to an
15 ongoing terrorism investigation, and so we have had to
16 prioritize, and I expect.we will have-to continue to
-prioritize in -the future. But.we,.along with the .community,
.18 are working in a'number of different ways to augment our.
19 capabilities.
Senator. Rohl. Director Mueller, the FBI has bene
21 heavily criticized since 9/11 for not connecting, the dots
'22. and preventing those attacks. You have done much to
23 reorganize the Bureau arid to'hope_that those changes will
24 ' better enable the Bureau.t6 detect and disrupt plots-. You
-
__ 25 almost completely remove the FBI from drug enforcement, and
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we are told that Many smaller criminal investigations,. such
as bank robberies, are beinTleft to State and loCal
officials. So where do you 'see the 'FBI g6ing%from Here? 'Do
you plan to scale back on the-Bure. au• 's involvement in any
•
other .a reas of .criminal 'enforcement?
Mr: Mueller.. Let.me, if I'COUld, just point out one" ••
thing. We have not'completely left the drug enforcement..
arena. We still have--and i-can get you the figures--a
number of agents who still are focused on enterprise drug •
investigations. We participate - in OCDETF, Organized Crime
Drug Enforcement Task Forces; around the.coUntry. We
participate in -HIDA,projects around the •c934-itry. .Sowe are
. .
still operating in the drug program and will continue. to.dcY'
What we have.dohe is triad 'eliininate the overlap
between -ourselVes and DEA in addressing-cartel cases,.and-by
cartel cases I.mean Mexican or Colombian cartel cases. where '
there had been overlap in the.past, and we are doing fewer.
. .
stand-aloneArug cases, and by fewer I mean cases relating
E0 methamphetamine, Ecstasi, that do .not perhaps relate to
enterprises, but I would expect' that We would still' stay in •
the drug program for a long time to come.
',We have had:to.foOus our resource's in the 'bank robbery..
area and the'small whiteL.collar'crime area, and we haVe done'
so. I have given latitude to special agents ifi charge of
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the various divisions to. identifY,particular priorities and
to best maximize that special-agent-in-charge's resources to
address that priority. It may be in one city that bank
.robberies are a substantial problem.- It may be a problem in
Los Angeles and not Boston or Portland, Maine or Oregon and
not Miami. And certainly working with State and local on
the priorities, we would work on a Bank Robbery- Task Force
for ayeriod of.time.
Andso what we have tried to do is be far more flexible
in addressing the concerns of the local communities than
perhaps we have done in the past, not driven-by statisticS,'
but driven by'the threats in particular communities.
. _
As we go- forward as a Bureau, I believe we should lodkfora.
reas in which-we are uniquely situated to addresS.the
threats. of 'the future, and I look to 2.010, threats of the
future, international threats,.terrorism, trafficking in
persons;-yes; trafficking in narcotics, transnationalinternational
white-collar frauds. .And with our 52 field
officeS, with our coverage in the-United States, we are.
uniquely able to:work with our. counterparts to address that
kind of more,likely threats in the future, and so I expect
us to continue to maintain a strong presence at the local
level, but be that intersection between the local level and
the international threats that we are going to.inCreaSingly
face as we go down this path.
FBI030802CBT
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Chairman Hatch: .Senator, your time is up. •
Senator Specter._
Senator Specter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.'-
DirectorMUeller, in the brief 10-minute time frame, I.
•
Would like to ask you about two subjects—one, the DireCtor
of National Intelligence and, secondly, about the PATRIOT'
Act, starting with the issue of coordination of intelligence
information. There are,many of us,,myself included, who
still believe that there ought to,be an overall Director of
National Intelligence. I compliment you and others. 'who have
moved to' have more coordination now ,than before, and I tried
to get this as part of the legislation for the. Secretary of
Homeland Defense.
. If there is a judgment.made to go to a-Director of
National Intelligence, do you think it would be better
lodged. in the.CIA-with the .Secretary of' Homeland Defense • and
the FBI' or should-there be. a new office created,' designated
Director of :National Intelligence, or is' there some other.
way that you would recommend that it be done, if we get to
the point of deciding that that has to ba done?..
Mr. Mueller. I'wrestled with this, and it is nOt.the •
•.
first time I have been asked abaut.it. I think' you start'
with some of the areas 'where I think.we have made • -
substantial strides. ' The Terrorist Threat Integration
Center Accomplishes for. analysis, as opposed to collection,
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:--
.1 the integration and the all-source access to information
relating to terrorism.
Senator Specter. .Director - Mueller, I have'only got 10
minutes. If you are going to tell me why we do not need
one, that is.not my question.. My question is, if we decide
6 we do need one, what is the option you would recommend?
Mr. Mueller.. 'I am notcertain I would recommend any of
those options.' I think, as testified before:the 9/11
CommisSion, I think there are pluSes and minuses in'each'of
those options. •I w ill tell: you, if there is a decision to
make—one of the reasons I do not have-an opinion on a DNI
12 is because I am not thoroughly familiar with all aspects of
13 4iiIitary intelligence rerSus-. CIA intelligence. I-' just have.
•
not been exposed to that.
-.Senator Specter. 'Well,.would you do "this for the
Subcommittee Or for the Committee, at least for me. Would ,
you think about it and give us your opinion? Because of all
of those who have to make a judgment, none of us has as much
knowledge as we would like to have, and. I would say you' are
-a:high..-level expert, and your opinion would -be very; very
weighty,. /
22 Let - me move on now to the PATRIOT Act and Start by
agreeing with you about the importance of tearing down the .
. wall so that when information was obtained under the-Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance 'Act and could have been used for a
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criminal prosecution, the prohibition was not sound at all,
and we.did make that important change. .And I know that has
).iberated .you.a great deal:
I believe that legislation in this field is necessary.
I was concerned ,that the'act was adopted Without hearings in'
this Committee and rather hurriedly on the floor of the
United.States Senate one Thursday .m ight -which I expressed at`
that time.- And in order'to'give the leverage to law
enforcement to be able to use'the PATRIOT Act, there has to.
be confidence that civil'liberties are being protected at
.the tame time..
And because. I bnly have 10 minutes, I. wantto give you
_ _ • .
a more lengthy- preamble,than I would like'to do , •
ordinarily like"to ask one question at a time, but I cannot
do that in ltiminuted..
The provisions with respect to an order for books,
records, papers;. documents, et cetera, has'been referred to
:as 'an administrative subpoena, and I am told that:that does
not require probable cause, and there has been
understandably concern expressed about going'after library
books, although there has been some,report that no effort
has been made'to do that, 'but just:the potential is'
problemtome. But if the library books related to-how to
make a bomb by an individual-who had other indicia of 'the.
appearances or,evidence or-probable cause"for being a
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terrorist, I could understand that;
Let me shift.now to the delayed notice provisions,
where the language is that if the Court has reason to
,believe, which is a different standard than probable cause,
I would be interested in yoUr views as to what the
difference is. And on the. delayed notice provision, there
are five reasons for the delayed.notice. Four of them .
appear to .be specific and sound. The 'fifth is a catch,-all
•"O therwise seriously jeopardizing an'investigation•or unduly
. delaying a trial." Where I cometothe question part,•itiS,
whether you can get along without that catch-all provision,
which causes some seri. o,us concern.
13 Arid. coming back tor just •a moment to the 'order
1.4 requiring the books, et cetera, the PATRIOT Act just says
that there shall be a specification that the records
concerned are sought to protect against International
terrorism or Clandestine intelligence activities. It does
not have, within the PATRIOT Act itself, the language"which.
.is in the Foreign Intelligence SurveillanCe Act,,wherethere
"is requirement of facts submitted.by the applicant showing
that there is probabie,cause to believe, and then,it says,
for the standards." •
And the questions I have for you are,.where you 'have an,
administrative subpoena, if,-in fact, that is what it is for
books, et detera,,where there is a -law enforcement official.
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looking for that information, could that individual not .
specify why the information is sought, whiCh really comes to
the'level of probable'cause. When we have had probable
cause imposed upon the States in-Mapp v. Ohio, .a very
different change'for law enforcement, the necessity arose to
educate police officers as to specifying.why'they wanted to
go after a certain record or document or -search.
. So the questions are, number one, if the 'FBI i4 looking
for an order on books, records, is it too much to ask the
agent to spell out why that is. being sought, .perhaps not to
rise to the leVel of probable cause, but at least some
reason to give it? And is there a different standard, under
delayed notice,. on reason'to'believe? 'And. coUld'yoU'dci.
without the catch-all on Item 5?
Nr. Mueller. Let me'go back. One comment you made is.
that the PATRIOT Act was rushed. I know this ComMittee had
a heating previously in which it Was brought up that Patrick
Fitzgerald, the U.S. attorney 'in New York, waeqUoted as
...saying people say the PATRIOT Act was rushed froth, his
perspective, and he was the one that was handling the al .
Qaeda cases.in.New York, and he said the PATRIOT Act was not
rushed. It was 10 years toolate. And I just wanted to get
that on the record that there is a belief that what the,
PATRIOT Act -has done in breaking down the walls has been
tremendously helpful. to us..
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Senator Specter. Mr. Director, I believe with 'you that
there is plenty of time to legislate, but there was plenty
of time to have hearings before the PATRIOT Act went to the
floor. We do not overdo' the work week here in the 'United
States Senate. So there is plenty of time to do it if we do
it.
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Mr. Mueller. Going to the issue of the delayed notice
first. I do 'believe that it ia a leaser standard than
.probable cause because it is delayed if the Court finds
reasonable cause,, which is less than probable cause, I
believe, and it is a' lesser standard, but I think it is
12 appropriate, when you are going before a judge and saying .
that, for .q11::8 -set of ,#rcumLtaris,weA4ant to delay a
notice for 3.0 days or 60 days or 90 days:
Senator Specter. Why should there be a lesser
standard?
• Mr. Mueller. You have it befOre.a- judge,: and probable
oauSe in that circumstance, 'it is not a search. - It is a
delay of a notice.' And I do not believe that you need to go
'to the higher level where you' are asking a judge just to
delay notice for a 30- or or a 90-day period, and 'I do
believe--.
Senator Specter. How about going after the books?
Mr. Mueller. In :terms Of.going after books, I believe
a standard of 'relevance is appropriate, so that the Court
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can look at the rationale, but not necessarily probable
cause. We do not require, as .you know probably far better
than I do, that in a criminal context, a grand jury-subpoena
for the same materials require a much lesser standard than
probable, cause. It is, relevance to. an investigation.'
think that same Standard should be.applied when we are
..addressing- terrorism.-
Senator Specter. But even that standard is not. in the
PATRIOT Act.
Mr."Mueller. VI°, it is not. It is in. the"Criminal
code':
•Chairman Hatbh. Senator, your time is up.
Senator Feinstein?
Senator 'Feinstein. :Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman,
and thank you for being here, Director. Mueller. 'As I have
said before, you -have always been a straight-shooter and
answered the'questions directly, and'I, for One, really
18 appreciate that.
do want to, along the line'of. Senator:Specter's
, 20 questions, bring to your attention that on March:23rd,.- I
-21 Wrote a letter to Attorney General Aihcroft and Director
.22 Tenet; and. in that letter I indicated that 1 was
23 increasingly concerned about the confrontationaltone of. •
24 discussions about the PATRIOT Act and the 16 provisionS
among the 156 which are set to expire in 2005. And I said -
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, 1 it was my hope that we can carefully consider and thoroughly
2 evaluate these in a timely:fashion. And I wrote to him
asking for his assistance that he ensures a critical and
4 comprehensive review of the implementation, value and
importance of each of the 16 provisions. I. received ho
response.
7 wrote.a second letter the next month on April 28th
with a copy of my prior letter. I received nb response to,
that. Now, I am a supporter of the PATRIOT Act, but if I
,cannot get from the Department of Justice what I ask for
with respect to a careful and comprehensive evaluation of
each of those provisions, I will be hard greased not to
• .
supgortthe- reaUthoriZation, and I just -want to ]et you know'
that.
15 And I will give you, before you leave today, copies of
those letter. Perhaps you can use'your influence and See.
that I get a response.
Let me put on my Intelligence Committee hat for a
moment. In 2002, we passed, in,the-intelligence
authorization bill, a section known as 321, and that
essentially required the DCI, in it dapaciy.as the head of
the intelligence'community, to develop standards and
qualifications for those engaged in intelligence activities
at the 15'departments.
• And the report . ha t we published went on to say, "The •
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Committee," the Intelligence Committee,'"has.become
.concerned that, particularly in the area of analysis,
elements of the intelligence community are denominating
individualsas,analysts or intelligence analysts without
adherence to a meaningful and common definition of the word.
Since September 11th, the committee has been struck.by the
ever- 'rowing number of individuals who are intelligence •
analySts, particularly in the area Of terrorism. It is the
committee's intention to require the Director," that is the
DCI, "to.-ehsure that individuals performing analytic or
other intelligence functions meet clear and rational minimum
standards for performing those jobs."
My first question is has the DCI provided you-With the
communitywide standards and practices 'required by law?
Mr. 'Mueller. I know we are putting--I alit not certain
•.
of exactly the way the import. of that lawhas been
transmitted to each.of.the agencies that fall within the
DCI.
Senator Feinstein, I am talking about.you, Director
Mueller.
Mr. Mueller. Yes.
Senator'Feinstein. t. seems to me theSe, standards
should go DirecEor-to-Director not' through lower echelons.
My question, and the intelligence authorization bill is very
' . . •
specific, have you been provided with communitywide
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standards for the hiring of-intelligence analysts?
Mr:Mueller. I do not believe so. We have established
. bur .own, in conjunction with the rest of the intelligence
community. .
Senator Feinstein. So you would not know how "many FBI
analysts meet those standards_
Mr. Mueller. We have been doing an assessment. I
. Wouldhave to get back to you.on that.
Senator Feinstein. I .mould.appreciate that, if I may
Mr. Mueller. Yes.
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Senator Feinstein. I Want to just follow:up on a
couple of things. What responsibility does an FBI agent
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serviag:in Iraq,,Afdhan7rstan-Yor that -matter, :Lny other..
place have -to report conduct .such as we have seen Vat the
prisons, and'it is not the only one prison, but in other
prisons, to report conduct that may violate United States.
laws?
1.8 Mr. Mueller. It is to report it and to report it up. •
4.9 the chain.
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Senator Feinstein. Have you received any reports?
.M r. - Mueller. From Ah;U Ghraib, no.'
Senator Feinstein. From any other prison'or _detention
or interrogation facility?
Mr. Mueller. We have, upon. occasion, seen an area
where we may disagree with the handling of a particular
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interview, and where we have, my understanding is--and we
are still investigating--where we 'have seen that, we have
brought it to the attention of- the authorities who are
;responsible for that particular individual.
Senator Feinstein. You mentioned in,response..tO
Senator Leahy that you had' questions about the effectiveness
of coercive -interrogation. Can you explain'that a little
bit further?
. -
Mr. Mueller. f think there may be various bodies•Of.
opinion as to:what is the most-effective way'to obtain
information. There are certainly differing points of views:
One of the.points of views in the FBI is-that developing a
:Gapr.)o-2-4..- --kuay• -be as effective- br more effectiire tha...z. r-other
ways: That does not necessarily:mean that our particular
view, in a particular.circumstance; is right. But asI
expressed to Senator Leahy, in the course of F.SI interviews,
there are standards that FBI agents are to apply.
. .
Senator Feinstein. In April of this year-- •
Mr. Mueller. May I add one other .thing, also? And
that is one of the things I do think it is important to
.understand is that.our.standards are developed,with the •
understanding that., for the Most part 'over the years; we
continue--to•conduct interviews within the
United States7-within. the United States--under the
Constitution, understanding that our mission is somewhat.
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different than the mission of'the Department of Defense and
the CIA overseas.. And so our standards we'adhere td within
the United States because that is our principal mission.
Now., in the case wheke we also are overseas, we ask our
agents to adhere to exactly the same. standards, and there
have been no waivers of those. standards.
Senator Feinstein. Well, let me'just say this: I
admire you for taking the position that your agents are not
going to participate Where those standards are not present.
So I thank you for that.
In April of this year, the FBI.issued an intelligence
report entitled "Threat Assessment, Los Angeles," I have
reviewe• d-the-rePOrecarefully ,Ntire detailSate."-'
classified and I will not go into them, I wrote to you
earlier this month to express my concern, saying in 'letter
dated May.3rd that, although titled "Threat Assessment," the
report contains little intelligence analysis; rather,, it is
a combination of older intelligence data and random comments
on ongoing investigations.
In essence--and this is' a problem, I-think, with your
agency--rather than analyze the implications of the. data you
have, the report counts the number of open investigations.
In my view, counting investigations is a valuable law
enforcement tool, but it is not a substitute for analysis_
How is.the PBI going to address this problem and
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acquire the skills that are necessary to do real
intelligence.amalysis? Wouldn't an assessment of the threat
to Los Angeles be primarily based on .foreign intelligence
collected overseas with the information from your
investigations being added data?
- •
Mr. Mueller. ' I think 'that is a valid criticism, and
too often in the past I think what we have done is look at
the number, of cases, and that does not substitute for the
:analysis that you describe. And I would think .a thorough
analysis would include not only information from overseas
and not only the number of cases we have, but also input
from'our sourcing in that area, whatever sources an
that, and give anoverall -a..8-:S-e•Saleirt..-'
I think you will be seeing one relatively shortly, and
throughout the Bureau, we are gaining that capability not .
oxily by'hiring'analysts who have" that capability, but
tatough the College- Of :Analytical'Studies and from our
. intersection with.both ITIC,'as well as the-CIA, as well as
alSothe NSA.
'We have put :out a number of, I think, very good'
assessments. ,The assessment we did on the national threat.
domestically over the last year I think has been a
quality product. And 'as we continue to grow our
capabilities there, I think you will.see the'quality,of the
.product 'will be much improved, as we gain .the capacity.
7.
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will tell you that we have put in each of our offices
. .
a field intelligence group with reports officers, with
. persons in .those intelligence groups who underStand how to
pUt together an 'assessment. That is not a capability. that,
we have had in the past, and we are building it. We are not
where we want to be, but we are building it•and we are
' building it.asIast as we can.
. Chairman Hatch.. Senatbr, your time is up.
Senator Feinstein. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Chairman Hatch: Senator DeWine?
.Senator DeWine, Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. .Director, thank you for joining us. .1 know that'
• -
_you-have-,expanded the Trilielkr1.4P5ion-,technolOgy-prograM
as a result of the .Webster report on Hanssenand September
"'11th and other issues. As a result, the FBI was allowed to
reprogram certain funds to address this expanded focus. Let
me ask yo4 a couple specific questions.
After redirecting these funds, do you-currently .have
enough Money.to complete Trilogy? What' will be the total
:cost of Trilogy? How much money di) you have left to spend '
on the program? And when Trilogy be completed?
Mr. Mueller. I am not certain I have answers today'on
eachone'of those questiond. I'believe we do have
sufficient money. Let me check one thing.
(Pause.]
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'Mr. Mueller. I believe the total cost, as I pointed
out before—but wejiave had some enhancements that we have
included in that--will be close to $560 million, and the '
last 'piece of Trilogy, that is, the virtual case file, my .
'2
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expectat. ion is th.a t it will be in by the end of the year.,
Senator DeWine. End of thiS'year? . . .. •
.5
Mr. Mueller: This year.
. _Senator DeWine. I understand that.the- FBI commissioned
the National Academy of Science to evaluate the Trilogy
plan. 'They were fairly critical. • However, I also
.understand that, many of these criticisms are for.issues.the
FBI has possibly already addressed. The NAS does not
' d±13-put*:te.t. p:ossibility, but'indicates -Lhefliave-beefe''. ---.7
Unable to determine the .F .B I's progress because the.FBI.has'
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not been forthcoming on these issues. That is What they.
say.'
an you address these concerns?
Mr. Mueller.. Well, I do think we have been' forthcoming
on the issues. One of the things ah:out the' report is that
was.done.6. months ago, and there have been substantial
changes in terms, of the development of an enterP.tise.
• architecture, the appOintment of a new chief information
offiCer, different mechanisms to assure higher-level.input.
into the project, all of which were recommendations that '•
' were in the report as it was drafted 6 months ago.
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The panel is coming back together to evaluate the
progress that has been made since 'they. last drafted the
report,.and my expectation is that there will be
acknowledgment of that in the next several weeks, in a
. supplemental or an addendum to the report.
Senator DeWine. So we should wait for that?
.sq
Mr:.Mueller. Yes, sir. On the other hand, we would be
happy to brief, as we have Others, where we are on our
information technology, the good and the bad. And there
• have,been'soMe'tremendous bright spots; there ha-lie-been a
,number .of--a relatively few bumps in the road, -but there
have. beenbumpS in•the road. •
YoU%alla' 16o/d1-11t.cUSsed that- befOre..-
I appreciate that.
Let me switch gears here a minute. Once September 11th
happened, the 4,73I, as you have testified in'front of this
Committee on several occasions in :the past; fUndaMentally
shifted gears,.and you moved from an agency that was
reactive, to a proactive' agency, and you moved from an agency,'
that dealt with many, many different things to an agency
that has locused,to'agreat extent. today on terrorism.
Every time you are here, Mr. Director, I ask you this
question, and I an goingt6keep asking you this question
because I.think,it is important for the American people to'
understand the answer. And I suspect the answer will
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continue to change a little-bit. .
What is it that the FE1'is not doing today that you
were doing in the past? What. is not getting done now
because of this change in direction? You are doing more.
You are .doing, more in the area of terrorism, fundamentally
more. You do have. some more resources that we have given
you.
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• 21 we are not doing as.many drug cases. We are not doing as .
22 . many cartel cases. But .1 do believe that the slack on the
'.23 cartel cases has been picked up principally by DEA.
'24 We are not doing as many, bank, We are mot
25 doing the smaller white-collar criminal cases, the bank
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8 Mr. Mueller. Yes.
Senator DeWine. But-"that means some things still are
not getting doneor are not getting done as:well. Candidly,
tell us about that.
Mr. Mue,l.l er. - We. are not doing-
4'4'Senator DeWine: The-Americani5eoPleife-eanEO .'knOwth
Mr. Mueller. Yes. We are not doing as many drug
cases. I think that is--to the extent that there is some
impact, I think it is probably more in middle America
because of the predoMinance of meihamphetamine"as a drug of-
,
abuse. And we have better coverage in most 'of middle
America than the Drug Enforcement Administration does, and
so that has, fallen to State and local law enforcement. So
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embezzlements under .a couple hundred. thousand. ' I.hate to
say it here, lout. we are not doing 'as many smaller whitecollar
crime cases as'we were doing before. We are relying
more--and when I say "we," I would Say law enforcement is
relying more on the Inspectors General to investigate fraud .
and .abuse against the.Government.
Those are some of the areaS'in which we are doing far .
less of than we had done in the Past.. But as we continue to.
stress -that Our prinCipal priority is addressing terrorism, .
CongreSs and the administration.have given us additional
resources Ln.terms.of agents and analysts in counter-.:
terrorism that haVe then fteed.up agents 'who.had been
•
redireafecrfrOdi thoSe other programs to. go 'back' tosome"-Of
these criminal programs.
But in the future, my belief is our three principal
priorities--counterterrorism, counterintelligence, and .
cyber--will cOntinue.to draw additional resources from some
of the other traditional areas that.we have handled."
- Senator DeWine. And the reality is that what the FBI
. always brought to -the table was the ability to .handle the
complex case,' the long-term investigations. And when ,you
hand those off, by necessity now, to local law enforcement,
that means somebody has got to pickup long-term
investigaticins. And sometimes that is difficult, frankly,
for local law enforcement to do, and that ts just a fact.
05-PART 1- DIR uuJ ui e613690
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1 _ Mr. Mueller. It is, and-
Senator DeWine. That'is a fact. That is wherewe are.
.Mr. Mueller. It is, One of the things I stresa to
each of the special agents in charge is that when you sit.
down with your lOCal police chief, there may be a gang
problem, there may be a particular drug problem, and there.
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is no reason why we can't bring the capabilities-we-have to'
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bear on.that problem fora period of time until it is
addressed. But we should nbt stay-in task forces beyond the
time that we'can contribute. :And we ought to be more'
. flexible in addressing those.particular needs of State and
local law enforcement with some p rticularity as opposed to
trying to do-it with .a 'broad btush:::
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Senator DeWine. Let me move to,one final question, and
that has to do'with the whole FISA. process and changes that
have taken place there. How are we doing there? Do we need
to make any change ih the FISA law, in your opinion? How
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are we doing? . And do .we need -to make any changes?
Mr. Mueller. Well, there is the Senator Kyl--I think
it is the Kyl-Schumer statute that is still pending that I
' think would be of substantial benefit' were'we to have 'that
pasSed. I would have to get back to you on that: I know..
that lone terrorist is one of the issues--
Chairman Hatch, That is the.ldne Wolf-- .•
25 Mr. Mueller. That is the lone-wolf-piece of
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legislation.'
Senator DeWine: Right, and •Ne'hcpe to give that to
you •.
Mr. Mueller. ..And I have to get back to.you, again, and
look at that. It•iS not right on my mind at this point.
,Senator DeWine. Could you take that then ,a s something
that you will get heck to us in writing-on?.
Mr. Mueller. * Absolutely.
Senator DeWine. .We'would appreciate that. •
Mx. Mueller. If/you can excuse, me just a second.
[Pause.]
Mr. Mueller. Specifically with the FISA. statute, that
I have .to get -'46acx to:you-Ca thiE
Senator DeWine. What is.your analysis, Director,
of how FISA is working mechanically now?
Mr. Mueller. It'is wOrking-:
..Senator DeWine. The flow,. because I do not want to in .
an open 'hearing get into too many details.
Mr.,Mueller. Let me just say there are two components
'to it, and, that—.
. • "
Senator DeWine.. I have some concerns.
Mr. Mueller. We still have concerns,'and we are
addressing it with the Department.of Justice. And I can
tell you'one thing: 'the quality of work.is as it has been
in the past. We have had to prioritize in ways that- we have-
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not in the past. And we have had to add additional persons,
and part of the 'challenge is both from information
technology as well,as the training .and augmentation of the
FISA staff, whether it would be in the FBI or in noa. We
have recently embarked on a task force concept that I .think
'will do much to.amellorate the problem. But. there is still
;.4.y
frustration out there in the field in certain areas where,
because we have hadtoprioritize, we cannot get to certain
. requests for FISAs as fast as perhaps we would,have'in.the
past. •
Senator. DeWine.. My time is almost over. Let me just-
. .
say. that that is something that, Mr. Chairman, .1 think this'
'Committee should spend a'little'more-tite
: •
the Director of the FBI comes into this hearing'—and. we are
in a open hearing and cannot go into any great-detail. But
it is clear there is a frustration level here with.the.
Director, and it is clear there is alrustration level with
.people in the field. And when he is talking about.making
priorities', that tells me once' again that things are not
getting done out there. And we. are going to be looking up;
Mr. Chairman, in a year' or two from now, and we are going to
be looking back at things that did not get done because of- '
. sodepechaniCal problems out there that should have been
fixed. And something- „is wrong out there.
Chairman Hatch. I agree..
FBI030823CBT
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Senator DeWine. There'.is just a problem here.
Chairman Hatch. Senator, l‘think that is a good point.
Senator.Feingold?
.Senator Feingold. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Director, Mueller, I, appreciate working with you, I
enjoy:working with yOu,. and I adMire the'challenges you have'
and the may you are .meeting them.' —So it does pain me to.
hear you using the same approach that almost everyone else.
in the administration uses.to defend USA PATRIOT Act. I
have heard the President do I:heard the Attorney General
•
do it.
You say the bill has to .be reenacted in exaotly.the.
iame-form.- Timi7YoeciaA a'bunch-of prOvisiOrii, Mr.
•Mu eller, that nobody objects to. It.isa.bait-and-switch..
• Nobody is against taking down the wall. Nobody wants to'put
the wall back up. Nobody dOes; 'I never did'. When I voted
against. the1oill, I never suggested--in fact,. that was one
of the provisions I was enthusiastic about.
-.Then you cite'the idea on the roving wiretaps..
Everybody in this Congress wants us to be. able to get at the
other-telephones. No one suggests that you 'should only.be
able to get at one telephone In 'an. era of cell phones. It.
is simply not anything that anyone has proposed that I know
of. Nobody opposed the idea of .nationwide search warrants,
the sort of thing you mention.
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And here is the problem. The problem is that you
suggest•to the American people that somehow these provisions
are in dispute,' that you,'I am sure, properly have indicated
have been helpful. But the provisions that we are concerned
about--and Senator Specter actually mentioned. some of them--
. ' •
do have problemOith the drafting.
;Now, you may be right that some of these provisions..
took 10 years to get them to us, but I assure you that our
part in the process,. which I-think is still important, was
extremely rushed, and the language was not carefully
reviewed.
For example, ,you take the sneak-and-peek searches.
I.' I • • "."."
• n - •
Senator Specter mentioned this. The PATRIOT Act could allow_
dalayednotice'of a search for potentially an indefinite
. .
period of time. In other words, instead of a judicial
,review and monitoring on a 7-day basis to make sure. that it
. • ' - • •
is still needed, it is indefinite. .Now, that is not.
something that you have 'shown any evidence to suggest is
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necessary in order to protect us from terrorism.
It also has the catch-all provision that Senator
Specter mentioned that alloWs delayed notice of a search if
it would "seriously jeopardize an investigation orunduly
delaY-a trial." Well, that is.just too'broad without a
specific connection to terrorism_
25
R ilexertioaCo.,
735'8* Street, S3?.
Washington. D.C. 29003
OM—Mg 07/15
Sothe point here that I want to make--and the same
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goes for:Section 215.. You started talking about a relevance
standard regarding the library-records'. There is no
relevance standard for Section 215. It. simply says'if you:
the PHI,,say you seek .the information in connection with'the
.investigation, the judge Is required to give you the order.
And I have heard the President'and the'Attorney General all
suggest that.Somehow there is-genuine judicial review there...
. So the point here is that. I don't think you'pven really
,want the USA PATRIOT. Act passed exactly intact again..There
is a necessary process that many'meMbers of this Committee
are engaged in on both sides of the aisle--Senator Craig,
'Senator Specter, Senator Durbin, myself, and others--where
we want' to-fix-tne."%'SA-PATrii0T ACE. And the prob4.em 'is-thE"; 7
approach'You:are taking enhances the view of many people in
this country that you are not.trying to fix it that you are
just defending it at all costs. And E'think.that is 'a
mistake. I think that.is.a mistake for the Constitution. I
think that is a mistake. for what you are-trying to.do.
Let's give the American people an opportunity to '
'believe that you and this administration have a concern,
about some problems with the powers, and let's.fix them so
there can be confidence as we'all go forward to fight
terrorism.
. •
In that spirit, I thought until today--and certainly
hope after your answer I feel again--that you believe there
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is a need for dialogue about these issues.. I Was pleased
when you agreed to speak apparently at an ACLU conference
about the,PATRIOT ACt. Earlier this week, William Safire
4 wrote a'column'about,his concerns With data mining.and. made'.
a Point about balancing security with liberty that I. believe
also applies.to the debate in the PATRIOT Act. He.warned
. that, "In.obtaining actionable anti-terror Intelligence,
there is a connection between, one,' today's concern tor
protecting a prisoner's right to humane treatment and,' two,.
tomorrow's Concern-about protecting a'free people's right'to'
keep the goVernment from poking into the most intimate
details of their lives. Must' we wait until intrusive
'general searches mushroom intO scandal, '
ability to collect information' that saves lives?" .
15 So, Mr. Director, do the American people have to wait
until a scandal occurs? Or wouldn't yOu agree that the
'administration should be taking concrete steps now to -
address the legitimate concerns that have been raised on•
both sides of-the aisle about the language of the PATRIOT'
Act? And are you willing to, sit down with a group of'us who.
21 are cosponsors of.the SAFE Act -to talk,about it?
Mr. Mueller. Well, Senator, _You started off by saying
23 that the roving part of the'statute is not at, issue, but
part of the SAFE Act would modify that part:
senator "Feingold. I didn't say that, Mr. Director. I
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said that the issue .that you brought up of being able to get
at multiple telephones is not at. issue.
Mr. Mueller., Okay.
Senator Feingold. So this is what this'is all about.
You cannot just say that making one Criticism of one part of
the provision deans that we think .the whole thing should be
thrown out. That:is not our position. That is not what'we.
are trying to do. We want to fix. it, Mr. Director.
Mr. Mueller. And I would acknowledge that a debate is
. appropriate. I.would be,happy to sit down with you or any
Senator here to discuss -what changes are appropriate: But
what my'concern is about is the heart of the PATRIOT Act.
The heart of -the'PATRIdr-Act.. Arid. I look at some 'of the
modifications in the SAFE Act, and I would disagree with .you
and I disagree adamantly in terms. of taking out the last
provision, (e), where the judge--you call it sneak-and-peek,
. .
but delayed notification, where a'judge can delay
notification because, as it is.in the PATRIOT Act, it would
. seriously jeopardize an investigation. And for most times
in which this has been approved previously by judges; it has
•been under that standard because ,that'is what most concerns
us. •
I am happy for the debate. I am glad to sit down with
you or any of the other Senators to debate the provisions.
But in my mind, what has not been acknowledged--and I wish
me
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it were acknowledged---is that the PATRIOT Act. has made us
safer as a whole.
Senator.Feingold. :I want to say to you that. I have
never said that certain provisions of the PATRIOT Act don't•
make us safer, and that is not the debate. • I only raised in
6 : my opposition to it a handful ,of provisions that I think are
•7 terribly important. But .let's just agree that there are
8• many provisions, all. the way froth being able•to get voice
9 mails because you could:get- the regular conversations- of
10 people, the.border guards for Canada. ..That is, not helpful
• to the debate in our:country to•suggest that those things
. -
12 are not important•..
c- 13 What I. think,you,just did ia-ciellfLLetfs get
14 to the•actual language. Is there a way in which we could
..15 both agree on.that language,,maybe make it.tighter and make-
16. it 'less of a catch-all that would still address the concerns
17. you have? And I do appreciate the fact that you are willing'
. 18 to•meet•with•us and•talk about those.
19 Let me switch to the questions-that-the ranking member
.20 asked a bit about Iraq. Could you please tell,us where the'
21 agents and translators, and other employees were assigned
•
before they were sent to Iraq?. Were they working here on
stateside issues relating to•terrorism, or were they pulled
off of active investigations or diverted from assisting in
other matters?
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Mr. Mueller. They will have come from offices .around
the country.
Senator Feingold. They were from here?
Mr•Mueller. From the United States.:'
Senator Feingold. Were they already working on
terrorism-related issues?
•
Mr. Mueller. .Same of them were'. .Some of them-may not
have been. •
Senator Feingold. 'Well, the President said, correctly,
that the fight against terrorism is not a war against Islam
or the Arab world, and I appreciate your references to this
today_ I feel very strongly.that the message shOuld'be sent
-repeatedly to the wOrlde:iwell ,as to Arilric.an0 -hereat
home. I -am_concerned that'there.are still .some in this
- country who have misinterpreted this fight against terrorism
and this conflict in Iraq as a War. against MuslimS,or Arabs.
Last Week, the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination
' Committee sent You a letter asking you to- issue's. public
statement to quell the public fears about hate crimes
against Arab and Muslim Americans in light of the recent
events in Iraq. Mr. Director, as you know, protecting civil
rights is one of the FBI's top priorities. What can you say,
today to the public to remind them.that we are :not engaged
in a war against Islam or the Arab people? And what. you •say
to'reassure.Arab and Muslim Americana that the FBI is, of
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-1 course,' committed to protecting their civil rights?
-- 2 Mr. Mueller. Well, as I said at the outset, the war on
3 terror in the United-States has to be undertaken by all of
4 us, and for the most part, it requires us'to be alert,
vigilant to persons in our, communities that might want to •
6
either support or undertake terrorist acts. And all of us
•.4j.
7 together have to understand the responSibility, and the
8 Muslim American and the Arab American communities have'
9 understood that and :work closely with us.
10 Each one of our SACs, special agents in charge, has
11 gone out since September 11th and developed, I think, good,
•cloSe working relationships with members of these
:c0m6Unities,' and we wiirContinue to do i61. —tt is
14 tremendously important.
•
• 15 : On- the other side•of the line is the assaults that have
161 occurred on,members of the Arab American'and•Muslim American
community that.are especially heinous in the light of what
happened 'on September 11th, and since SepteMber 11th, we
have initiated 532 hate crime investigations where the
victims were either Arab, Muslim, or Sikh. And out of those
investigations, Federal charges have been brought .against 18
.subjectS and local charges against 178 individuals.
12
13
So, on the one hand, we appreciate and we thank and
hopeto continue to work with the members of the Muslim
American and Arab American communities who,. as I have; always.
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1 said, are as patriotic if riot more ,patriotic than most
-_ 2 perhaps in this room,
3 And, on the other hand, to the extent that there are
4 those who don't see that, don't understand it, and undertake
hate crimes, we will be there, we will be investigating, and
.charges will be brought, and you will be doing time in jail.
•
7 Chairman Hatch. Senator, your time 'is up.
• . •
Senator Feingold. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
9 ' Chairman Hatch. But 'just to clarify before I turn to
' Senator Cornyn, 16 provisions of the PAleIOT Act are due to
expire on December 31, 2005. Among the proviSions that are
•, subject to expiration are Sections 201 and 202, which add
13. terrorIst-OffenSes and‘,comPurdr.il'aud'or sabuse as.predi6atig
to obtaining wiretaps; Section.203 and 218, which enable law:
enforcement to share counterintelligence information with
the intelligence community; Section 206, which permits
roving 'wiretaps; SeCtion 209, which' permits law enforcement
officials to obtain voice mail through .a . search warrant'.
rather than a wiretap; Section 220, which authorizes
nationwide issuances of search Warrants .for wire or
electronic communications and electronic storage and others.
If these provisions expire,--and I am not saying the
distinguished Senator from Wisconsin has been against all of
these provisions--'
'Senator Feingold. MX. Chairman, that is simply untrue.
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Chairman Hatch. "I said I am not saying that you have
said that you are against these provisions, all ,of these
. provisions.
Senator Feingold. I just really--
Chairman: Hatch. What'didI
Senator Feingold. Mr. ChairMan, I Want, to be:Clear
that I have not:taken the position that all of-theseprovisions,
should
•
Chairman Hatch. That.is.what I just got through
saying, that you are not against all of these provisions,:
and that is what I thought I made clear. But you have been .
- against some of them. And the criticshavebeen
. . .
'am-just pointing.Out'16 very Impertalit 6rovisicins-4re
to, expire, and that is all I wanted to point" cut. I.find no
fault with you wanting :to' have a dialogue and criticize. Irt
:fact, I do. think we are going to have to have a- hearing on
the SAFE Act so that you can get that out inthe,open, which
you would like to do, and, of course, have. out law
. -
enforcement 'people tell us whether it is 'doable the way the'
SAFE Act wants it done or not doable. the way the SAFE Act
wants it done. .
But one other thing. Anybody who thinks that the .
PATRIOT Act was done in haste didn't. sit through the 18-hour
days' for 2 weeks, and years before, because it was the
Hatch-Dole Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act
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where we debated some of those proVisions before and could
not. get them in. I mean, this has been going on for years
on this CoMmittee, not just the approximately 18 days that
it took day and night--you know; 18-hour.days.to ,do the
PATRIOT Act. Those provisions we have debated for years,
ever since I have been on this Committee. ' So it is not
•
some•t hing that was not Well thought out or'was not thought
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through. And the one thing that I think has to be said is
that in the five hearings that. we have held on this
10 Committee so far, there has not been one--not one--effective
11 criticism. The Senator from California made that point.
12 And, you know, we hear 'a lot of screaming in the media
•.:. :... :_w . ...: . • cii,... r - . . --:'':.-11,--" '
13 and.a.lot • o f criticism, blit not one that.has,shown one • --
14 misuse of the PATRIOT Act or one abuse of the PATRIOT Act: .-.
" 15 And- I think that needs to. be said. '.
•
16 Did you•want'to Pay something?
17 SenetoLeahy. Mr. Chairman,:I woUld simply note this -
18 and take somewhat of a different view, because I:Vas there
.19 when the PATRIOT Act--
20, .Chairman Hatch. So was I.
21 Senator Leahy. --was written, and I recall .the first
. 22 draft that came up from the Attorney General, and, you and
.23 others suggested we pass it that day. Some of us suggested
24 we-read it.
_- 25 • Chairman 'Hatch. I don't think I suggested that we pass
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it that day. That is hot true.
Senator Leahy. We•will let the• record-:-
Chairman Hatch. - We worked- the full.time with your
staff, and you know it.
Senator Leahy. But be that as it may, after we read
it, a number of. changes were made by both Rep• ublican's: and ..•
Democrats to it.
.But the point is ,one of the major things put' in its was
the proyisions,that have been refetred'to here,',the sunset
provision for Decembers3i, 2'005.: That was 'authored by then-
Republican Majority Leader Dick Armey of the HoUse and
myself: Now, We are not normally seen as'ideological soul
mates, 'but we authored it because these.2.prOVisiOns were:!7-
extensive and new, and we'assumed that there would be real
,oversight on-them.. And part of the- frustration with the
'Department of Justice is that a nnmber of Senators on this
Committee,, both Republicans. and Detocrats„ have written a
number of letters about how some of those provisions were
used, written to the Attorney General, whether it doeS not •
respond or responds inadequately. I have stated before I .
think there is some huge room down at. the Department. of
Justice where all these letters go.
But the reason they are there is to have real
oversight. It is not a question of finding criticism. If
you can't even' answer the questions that were asked, .nobody
FBI030835CBT
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knows whether there is anything there to Criticize or not, •
whether it is on FISA or anything else. Congressman Axmey
and I have written a letter jointly on the same question.
2
4
5
. 6
7
He and I mayor may not agree on every part of it. Senator .
Craig and.I have written on this. • We may not agree on every
part of it whether it should• go forward Or .not. We do not
want to see ourselves in a Ruby Ridge-type situation. We do.
not want to see ourselves in any kind of a situation,where
we do not know the answers.
That is why the provisions are in there. That is why
they will not be renewed, unless-and until there.is real
oversight, which means,: among other things, having the'AG,
actually answer the-MUL4tio'n.S..
—I
Chairman Hatch. Before I 'turn'-to Senator Cornyn, let
15 .me just. make the record clear, because.in the FBI's report
to the 9/11 Commission, it indicates. that a number of
outside entities and individuals have studied the FBI's
operations since September 11, 2001,..and they, have found no
indication-that the FBI has conducted operations with less '
than full regard for civil liberties.- None.
For example, the DOJ Inspector General has issued three
,consecutive reports indicatingthat:his office had received
no.complaints for each-6-month period.alleging a misconduct
by'DOJ employees related to the use of any substantive
provision of the USA PATRIOT Act.
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1 Now, all' I am saying is we are having an. effective
-- 2 debate on this Committee. We are holding hearings. We are
3 gluing people from the left to the right an opportunity to
4 criticize. To date, I have not heard one substantive
5 -criticism other than some would like to change one or..more:
6 aspects of the PATRIOT Act.
7 I would suggest to everybody, listen to of
8 the FBI who has to live with 'those provisions and who has to
. protect u8; along with his organization.of 28,000 people.
10 And I'think.if you do, we will have very fewohangesin.the
11 PATRIOT Act. But that does not mean we cannot make it
12 better.' If we can, Ia.m going to do. everything I can to ,.d o•
• -- . 13 . "
.14 Senator*CornynZ
15 Senator.Cornyn. Thank.yOu, Mr. Chairman.
-16 Director Mueller%,:thank,you, and I admire you: -and 'the
. great'work you are doing at the- FBI. 0f-course, the debate
18 we are having her nOw'iS.one that we havellad.since the
. .1a beginning of this- country, the.properbalance between
20 security and liberty. And 1 think it iS'gOod that we have •
21 . the debate. This is the right place,t6 have it./ But you
.,22 shouldn't not have a-debate in the FBI about.-executing the
23 • -laws that are-passed by Congress, and I appreciate the '
24 diligence with-which the FBI is executing those laws and
o
_._, 25 making us safer.
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But I do take a' different view ,than Senator Yeingold
expreseed. I-admire his sincerity and his conviction and
his consistency, but I simply disagree. I think I for one
will'support an effort to strike the sunset provision in the
PATRIOT Act because I think it ought to be made. permanent,
.because I agree with yoU'that it has made America safer,
But what I. wotry about is not,people in Congress or
elsewhere making good decisions about that balance between.
.security and liberty based On good information or the facts.
I worry'about the facts being misrepresented or people being
scared into making emotional decisions about what the
PATRIOT Act .does or does not do.. And what I am referring to
specifically that has resulted- in,.I
—it ,—i s 287 different cities, city 'councils, municipal .
governments who have passed resolutions opposing--maybe.
."condemning" is too strong a word, but opposing the PATRIOT -
•
Act-, including. three in my State.
Then I happened to receive a solicitation for funds
. •
from the American Civil Liberties Union. I attt not sure
. exactly how they got my address., but I did, 'and the primary
thrust of that solicitation was that I needed to send the
.ACLU money to protect the country, protect myself against.
the Government's use of the PATRIOT Act to .somehow strip me
of'my civil liberties.
Ot course, scare tactics are common: It is a way ta'
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1 motivate people to act.. But is 'not honest; it is not.
2 appropriate, And I think that the PATRIOT Act has made
3 America safer.
. 4 I am amazed that we are. having this debate, but,.; again,
S. the debate is good_ But after the 9/11 Commission hearings.
6 where you'and the Attorney General and others talked about
7 the .importance of the PATRIOT Act's elimination or at least
• •
a bringing down the wall that separated the .law enforcement
and intelligence-gathering agencies from information sharing
and how important that has been. -And it is amazing'how you
'. can see the public rhetoric and the public opinion kind:of
- turn on a dime. It was as a result of that hearing which I
think educated the Aderican people.about the•gooa things the
14 PATRIOT Act .has 'done to make us safer. . Indeed, I.guess the •
15 best evidence ,of that is we have not, 'thank :God, had another
.terrorist attack on our own soil since 9/1.
17 But let the ask you -specificallyabout two thing's. One
10,
.11
12
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16
18 • has to do with the .material support provision offthe'.PATRIOT,
Act. As you know, ,the - Ninth CirCuit has upheld a facial'.
challenge to that provisiOn of thePATRIOT.Act, and_other
courts; of course,'have rejected such constitutional
.challenges." And, of course, this material support provision
of the PATRIOT Act actually precedes the PATRIOT Act. .It:
'had been applied and criticized since the Clinton
. administration..
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1 But could you tell us the importance. of retaining that
provision or something very close to it in terms of the
3 SBI'S efforts to combat terrorism?
Mr. Mueller. The material support statute is--I'
•
S ,wouldn't say instrumental, but exceptionally necessary in
order to"preVent terrorist attacks, And the'.reason is
because you cannot always.hope :to catch the terrorist with
the dynamite in their.handigoing to the place where' they
want t6 undertake the attack. And you cannot:wait until the
person has the device together and wants to use it. .You
have to address terrorism by looking at the financing. 'You'
have to address terrorism by looking at the' recruiting. You
have ta,address'.t e-r rorisM-by looking- at the Organization.
You have to address terrorism by looking at the-travel. .An4
if 'you find persons who are supporting. in one way acts of ,
terrorism, then you need a mechanism to address that and to
*.arrest,therci and.charge them, give them ,their full' rights,
under the Constitution, but address.it.
One of the great problems in addressing terrorism is
you would say it is somewhat.ofaninchoate crime. It is
some. place.between somebody thinking up a terrorist act and
actually accomplishing it. And it is, between 'the thinking
up of a terrorist act and having somebody accomplish. it
. where we have to gather the intelligence to identify that
person or personS and we have to make certain that they do.
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not accomplish that terrorist act.
The other point about material support is that if one
person commits a crime--it is.like the conspiracy statute.
One person commits a prime.. The crime does not have the
full ?force and effect as if you have a number' of persons ,
Conspiring,together,to.coMmit'that crime. In"order to be
effective in 9.)11, the persons who undertook. that had-to -be
financed they had to have travel documents.; they had to
have persons helping them in order to commit that,final aCt
on Septemberd1th. And the material support statutes enable
us to address that.tYpe of participant substantially before
•th at terrorist act is-on ,its Way to complete.- So it is very,-
Important.
88
14 Senator Cornyn. Not just the'person that detonates the
15: bomb, but the people ,who made that *possible.
Mr. Mueller.. Who financed it, may have provided false '-
17. identities, any number of ways that 6ne-can'support a
18 terrorist.act.
19 Senator Cornyn.• I.have just one.other'qUestion or area
20' that I am just curious about. I know Senator Specter and
21 others have.talked--there have been proposals for a:Directdr.'
22 of National Intelligence., But I must Say.that in our effort
23 to' promote information sharing," particularly not just.atthe-
-24 Federal level but at the State and local.levels--and Z.do
25 appreciate your emphasis. on that in youropening statement. '
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because I do think that is critical. I worry that our
intelligence ,community sort -of like the layers of. an
onion, it seems like.- And I really don't'understand--and
maybe there are people smarter. than I am who can explain"it .
to me--why we would just want'to add another layer to that •
onion When it comes to the intelligence communitYy how that
would actually promote information sharing in a way that
would, make US'safer.'
Would you just comment on your'views on that generally?'.
Mr. Mueller: Well, again, I am'Director of the FBI,
not Director of CIA.,'but there is. a belief--and George tenet
would articulate it--that in order'to'be effective, you have
to be close to those-Who-are:, doing the analySis/ those who'
are doing'the collection of'the intelligence 'And to the
extent that you have someone that is divorced from that, you
lose that effectiveness.
We have put into place mechanisms to enhance our
analytical capability across all-of our Organization when i.t
comes to terrorism_ We have another mechanism--well, We
have'two mechanisms. One is the National Security Council
and the Homeland Security. Council. So 'to the extent that,
one needs operational coordination in any area, either the
,National Security Council or the Homeland Security Council
does that coordination.
What I am less familiar with; do not understand fully. •
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is the budgetprocess,in the intelligence communitY•and how .
better coordination of that budget process might enhance the
' coordination of our,intelligence'acrOss the Government: :. Andthere
I just..do feel.that I have .sufficient information
to provide much input.'
. .Senator Cornyn. Let me just in quick'folloW74, we, ofcourse,•
have become familiar with. the conCept of jointness
•
when it comes to ,fighting wars,,joint -training, joint
operations. We haVe seen it in Afghanistan and Iraq between
the various militarY brandhes.
Is it too simplistic to think that perhaps in
..intelligence gathering and analysis and dissemination we
. .
could conceive o'the intelligence 'cominunityrs-46b--ts 'to tact
jointly? *Is that the goal?
Mr. Mueller. We have got to regardless of whether
there is a DNI. It will ,only be effective if'we-are working—
in a coordinated way between' the Federal:Agencies, whether
itbe FBI, Department of Homeland Security, CIA, NSA,. Dop,
DIA. In order to be effective, we have to have,an
.interseotion of intelligence with State and local law
enfOrCement. ' In order to be effective, we-have to work with.
our counterparts overseas, whether they be .law enforcement
.or intelligence counterparts. And. there hasto'be a sharing—
of information amongst all of these various players in ways
that. .we have not 'in the past.
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. Senator Cornyn.•Thank you, Director Mueller.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Hatch. Senator Schuther?
Senator Schumer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
• First, Mr. Chairman, let me thank you for holding this
hearing in'the morning, as I had reqUested. 'I appreciate •
that very much, and I-want to thank the Director not, only' •
91
for being here but for the time he spent with me last. week'.
going.over the progress FBI has made.on' computers. And I
will.have' more to say,a4Dout that at another time.
Today'I want to talk a little bit about something that
'bothers me a great deal, and it will lead to a question to
you Mr. D4.rect6i. Today, for the 'second time in as many '
weeks, there is evidence'that a civilian contractor serving'
a senior position .in the Iraqi prison system has. a troubling
history and a checkered record when it comes to Prisoner.
—abuse. .
Last week, we learned that Lane McCotter,• who was.
ousted from the Utah corrections syStem when a schizophrenic
inmate died after being strapped naked to a chair for-16
hours,. ,that is a practice that McCotter defended and
affiimatively endorsed_ McCotter then went on to serve as
an executive in a private prison company that was under
investigation for denying prisoners access to medical
treatment and violating other civil rights. And at that
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point, after that, checkered past, to be kind, Attorney
General Ashcroft appointed him to 'help rebuild Iraq's prison
system.'
McCotter ended.up being posted at Abu, Ghraib where
among his duties was the training of guards. ThiS is'a
picture Of 1 cC6tter- along with Wolfowit, and- Gary Deland,
.1-1.c1 in the back is Generall So his. appointment raised Serious questions,' including
whether he had anything to do with the Abu Ghraib crimes,
10 And Mask Attorney General Ashcroft what was being done to
,11 investigate the rble'of civilian Contractors in the Iraqi
-. 12 prIson, Scat.dal';- , X-am,still:awaitj,ng.a response.-
.,/ 13 Now, today we,learned--or.I just learned this week that
14 there is'another leader of the prisons in araq with a
.15 similarly,troubling'past. So.it makes the questions we have
16. asked the Attorney. General even more'uxgent. While running
. 17 'Coanecticut's ,prison,system, John Armstrong, here pictured
- .18 in Iraq, made a practice, of shipping even low-level
19- offenders toe. supermax facility in Virginia. It was
. 20 notorious, this facility, for its use of excessive force.
21 tt ranges 'fito the ,unjustified Use of stun guns .shooting .
22 50,000 volts through prisoners-7these are low-level--to
.23 locking inmates in five-point restraints for such lengthy'
24 periods that they were 'routinely forced to.defecate.on
. .25 themselves.
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1 Even after advocates objected'and asked Armstrong to
2 reconsider, he persisted in sending ConnectioUt'prisoners to
3 thisjail where they were subject to treatment many have
4 described as torture. Armstrong resigned as a result of the
chorus of Criticism over this decision.
6 But that was not all: When Armstrong resigned,. he was •
.
. under a cloud of_credible allegations that he tolerated and:
personally engaged ,in sexual harassment of female employees.
under his command. One of,the women who sued and'Claimed
Axmitrong had harassed her personally received a settlement,
of a, quarter of a million dollars. And despite this record,
:Armstrong was tapped to serve as the deputy director of
operations'fbr the prison system in Iraq. •
One. fficial with a history of-prisoner -abuses raises
an eyebrow; but two means we are really beginnkftg to have a .
problem. Why.would.We send officials -with such 'disturbing
,
-records to handle such a sensitive mission? That is: beyond ,
me...It cries..out for explanation. Obviously, we have an
obligation ,to ensure that all of those. responsible are
'brought to justice, and we have.a 'duty to guarantee that a
handful of privates do .not take-the fall they were
directed.by others. They should be disciplined
appropriately, but when you read, for instance, what Sivits -
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did today,'that.is, he was required or asked to eScort
prisoners to a certain place, he did not participate in:what
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was going on--he Saw it and did not report it to higher-ups-
-obviously, that is not sufficient.
This is unfair, and what bugs me the most, as soMehody
:who really cares about our troops--I have traveled from one
end Of the State to the other'and watched our troops go off
to Iraq. I see them saying goOdbye'to their faMilies, and
they do it with a sense of duty, honor. And now wherever an
American. ..'.s o• ldier walks overseas; these :pictures come to
other people's mind. It is unfair to• them..
So we have got to get to the'bottoM of this, and if we
are sending abusers,.habitual abuses of'.what is normally
conceded as rights, and putting them in charge .of the
prisons Where we learned the abusesare. nOw.oc6urring,,we
lie*i to know why it is happening and "what is being doner.
about it. We need to know if these men or others committed
. .
crimes in'Iraq and whether they will be brought to justice.
As you knowc if the FBI does not investigate and.D0J.
does not prosecute the civilians who .committed these crimes,
no one will. .From what I understand, DOD may be saying it,
will investigate...the crimes by .civilian contractors.and pasS
them along to,the Department of Justice. That seems to me
to be an unacceptable solution, Mr. airector. The DOD
investigators know how to go after military Crimes. That is
their expertise. crimes, to be prosecuted in
civilian courts; are a whole different story. We need
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professional prosecutors and criminal investigators on the
job. We.need them now. 'I would like to see us find out who
did.this, punish their appropriately, and move on. I'say
that as somebody who has been a' supporter of the President's
policies in Iraq,•or at least supported the war and the
money to go to 'the. troops.'
So the first question I have for you: Does it make any'
sense to have the DOD'4nvestigate civilian's who cannot be
prosecuted in military courts? Why•shouldn't the FBI be
doing. this type of investigation?
Mr. Mueller. Well, with all due respect, Senator, that
was a lengthy statement before the question, and I •do think
it is a little bit unfair because you know-that I cannot'
. •
respond to the assertions you make, either about these
•
individuals--
senator SchuMer. I am not asking, that.
Mr. Mueller. I know,' bilt I do think it is unfair
knowing that I.can'not respond and defend either the
individuals--
Senator Schumer. I am not asking you to do that. I am ,
asking--
. Mr. Mueller. .--or the Attorney General. 'And I would
be happy to answer the' question,' but I do ,want to say that
you and•I know that I was not at all aware of thiS, *hat you
are portraying today, that--
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Senator Schumer. Well,. the first One-has been public
for a week, McCotter;
. Mr. Mueller. In any event,, I.know'that the Depa-r t.m ent.
of Justiceis.having discussions with.DOD.as to the
jurisdiction.• I do not know what the result of those
diseussions will be.
. • •..•
Senator Schumer. 'Here is what I want to bring out, and
if I had gotten answers.from the Attorney General', I would
•
not be asking youthese questi.Ons. But I am not asking you
to.comment on any individUal.case, obviously.. The first one ,
has been public for.a week. It has been in lots of
different newspapers and stuff-. The second one ,we just came
-.- -.—
across today.
But if there 'are civilian contractors who may have
broken the law,, whoever they may be; does it make any sense
to'have.DOD do the investigation? That is what I .cannOt.
figure out. They -don't have jurisdiction. •
Mr. Mueller. Well, my understanding Is they may,have..
jurisdiction. That' is being Worked out. 'I do not know the
basis for which they would have jurisdiction, and as in any
investigation, it would be dependent on who you have to'
investigate. The gener'al whO investigated. the abuses at Abu
Ghraib did a superior job, and I think most, persons -in the
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-.Senate have said do.
Senator Schumer. Right.
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Mr. Mueller. And so, again, it is where the jurisdiction
lies and who is doing the investigation, and I do'
believe'that, as happened in the investigation of Abu '
1-iraib, a general or a person in the DOD can undertake a
full, comprehensive investigation. But it really depends on
.where the jurisdiction lies, and. that is being discussed.
Senator Schumer. Let's just take a hypothetical:, A •
civilian appointee is involved in the prisons, gave the .
order to do things that violate the law to Iraqi .prisoners.
Why wouldn't we have the FBI do the investigati• on? Is there
any,doubt that DOD cannot discipline people who are not
unger.military command? , • .
--.: '-- - -,.•
' Mr.- Mueller. • Again, I would have to x.efer you to the
'Department on the jurisdictionaI'issues, which they are
working., on no My understanding is that there may be a
basis upon which these individuals Could be tried by the
military, but I am not familiarwith'the arguments. And,
again, I. think it is still up in the air.
Senator Schumer.. So you—Okay. I will ask, Mr.
20 'Chairman, that 'I get an answer in writing from the Director
if I am not going to get one'from.the Attorney General aboUt
whether-DOD has jurisdiction. And- if not--
Mr. Mueller. I think there will be--I do believe there
will beAn Answer. I am not certain that the answer has
' -25 been fully clarified as yet.- And I am not certain of the
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rationale or the reasons why we do not have--why there is no
answer currently.. ,
I can tell you, if requested, I believe we would be .
available to quite obviously investigate,, but, again, it'
.gets down ta jurisdiction.
• • •
Senator SchuMer. And'allthings being equal, if the'
DOD did not, have jurisdiction to actually' prosecutethese •
folks", then Wouldn't it'make.sense for the FBI•to.do the
investigation rather than DOD and then turn over the '
information to.--
Mr. Mueller. Yes.
Senator Schumer. Thank you.
• .
Chairman Hatch. .YoUr time is up'.
SematOr Sessions, will'be--unles's Senator Durbin comes
back--our last one.
Senator Sessions. Thank you, Mr, Chairman'.
• On the question .of the issue that'Senator Schumer •
raised, Senator Schumer, I think. all on this Committee
• •
supported the legislation that I offered .in 2000 that became
law to make contractors of DOD Subject to criminal,
• ...
prosecution by the Department of Justice. Ithink' the Act
probably contemplated investigations being done by DOD in
the field, but it also, I think, would probably allow FBI td
investigate in the field. The ultimate Prosecution would: be
by the Department of Justice. And I certainly have no'.
•
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3. concern or doubt that DOD can investigate it. I am familiar
2 with the military legal system, the JAG offiCersand their
3 abilities, and they are first-rate. I don't see any
-conflict of interest. The military-is'very upset about what
happened:in Abu Ghraib prison, and they want something done
about it. So I:think we will see that everybody that is
gUiltyprosecuted.
I am glad that we.had that statute passed. Without
we would not have been-able to:proSecute. tiao not believe
these contraqtors could be- prosecuted except - perhaps in Iraq
without this statute that we just passed a few -years ago.
' I think the contradtors are not aPpointedbithe
Attorney General; however, .I think they are appointed by the
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Department of Defense and those agencies. So :I really do
not think that Attorney General Ashcroft needs to take the
blame for that. But I may be wrong. • '
Senitor'Schumer.- Just if 1 could, McCotter was
-appointed by DOJ.
:Senator Sessions. By DOD?
Senator. -S chumer. DOJ.
Senator Sessions.. I have beet. asked a number of times,
- weal, what about contractors? And I. think the right
. •
.approach is this: We need. contractors. We need people who
may be retired FBI agents who are willing to go to Iraq and
help do the interviews and investigations. We need people
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who know:how,to run prisons that can help'us in wartime run
.a.prison. A young 19-year-pld MP does not know the ins and
outs of bringing up a prison and bringing it to operation.
But we do - need to monitor. And I think backgrounds are
important., Senator Schumer, I think you raise an important
there. And,' in additiOn to that, they need.td be monitored:
in the field,' and somebody needs to,be in charge of them.
That ib.one•of. the Conclusions,I reached -about thiS prison
system. We have yet to see7-I think we will-see-who they
are responsible to and who actually had Control over them
But they have got to be disciplined just like any Other
•of icial.
- -
With ,regard to .the ,PATRIOT Act,' we have had a _chorus of
people going around saying all our liberties are threatened .
.by the-PATRIOT Act, as Senator Cornyn noted.' So, first of
all, 'we need to- defend the Act.- it is-critical and valuable
to us.. The core parts of.it are just absOlutely essential;
And .I was pleased to see that Senator Feingold, who is a
fine civil libertarian, agrees with_the roving wiretaps and
some of the other key provisions in there..
Withregard to those issues that are somewhat in'
diSpute, that are complained- of, I think they are-very.
small.. But the sneak-and-peek is not a small issue; to you
agree?
Mr. Mueller. Absolutely. Lt is verys important'to use:
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'Senator Sessions. Nbw, you--
. -
.Mr. Mueller. And they call it sneak-and-peek, and that
'is.the wrong--it is delayed. notification: Delayed
notification. Delayed notification...They get these names,
if you will pardon me just for a second,,that are
pejorative,,tha.undercut the understanding.,of-the public
and exactly what is happening. And. it.is not that anybody
goes in and sneaks and peeks. In fact; you get a court
.order .to do a search. You do. the search. And what you want
it to do is .delay the notification as y.cwLcontinue the
investigation,
Senator Sessions. Exactly correct. So, you have-to
have:a search warrant submitted to a Federaljudge with
probable cause evidence:that there. is evidenCe of a crime.
inside the house or residence you want-to search, and yOu'.
'can get those, and we have'been doing those in America'for
hundreds of years, I. suppose.: Is that 'right?
Mr. Mueller. That is correct.
Senator:Sessions. '.They are done every day all over
America. We see on. television people raid a.drug house or
these laW:and-order shows, they aresalways.getting search
warrants and judges approve 'them, and they.go in and do.
,their'searCh:
Now, the difference here is simply _that when you are
dealing with a terrorist organization, the issue may be a-
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life-and-death question.. Is that right?
Mr:,Mueller. Correct.
Senator Sessions.' And you.want.to maybe find out if
there'are pieces of a bomb being assembled in that house.
And it may be important to protecting thousands of American
citizens that we do not tell the bad guys, the terrorists,
that very moment that we know and we are on to them; and
•th at you would%have the legal power to do the search, and
you simply would not announce to the'people searched that
day that:the search occurred. Isn't that what it is all
about?
Mr..Mueller. .That is it. Simply, that is what
Senator.Sessions. I 'just think that.is a critically
Valuable tool in terrorism investigations, and one of the
things that, happens is, as a former'prosector myself, if you
do the search too quickly, you tell everybody in the
organization you are on to them. They know you are on .to.
the bad' guys. And you do not want to do that sometimes.
SometimeS that is critical that you not, and these kinds of. .•
delayed notifications were in place- in the law.even before
the PATRIOT Act, were they not?'
Mr. Mueller. They were, and they were used in.a2nUmber
of different inveStigations,.for instance, narcotics
investigations where you do an investigation, an informant
says there is in a locker some place an' amount of cocaine:,
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You do not want that cocaine to hit the street, but-you'have
not completed the investigation. 'Abu get a search warrant,
you go in, and you replace-it with a white.substance so it
does not hit the',street and you continue the investigation.
And it has happened any number of time.
Senator Sessions., But even then, you have to ask" a .
judge to allow you'not tO notify immediately. Isn't that
right?
Mr. Mueller. Yes,- sir.
Senator Sessions. A judge, wouldhave to approve your
decision not to notify.
Mr. Mueller.- -Fes.
Senator Sessions. I do not understand the library,
mean, you can subpoena my bank .records., my medical records,
my telephone records. It is done every day.in America by
the thouSands, every day. To say you cannot subpoena
whether you checked out a-book on bomb making from the
library to me is breathtaking in, its lack of understanding
of the way the criminal justice system works. I do not see.
that librarians deserve a special protection here like.
priest and penitent.
- Senator Sessions. Is there anything in the libraryof
'standards that you are aware of that represents an expansion
or some sort of threat to liberty?
14.r. Mueller. Na. As I think you are aware, being a
• •
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former prosecutor, in criminal investigations, a grand jury
subpoena is allowable certainly to any number of
institutions, including libraries, and the standard is
. basically ,a,relevant standard. And so it is not new.
The one example is Kaczynski, who was the Unabomber,
wrote manifests. In those -manifests he had excerpts from
books that were difficult Eo get. We were able, with the
help of the library, to identify he was the person whd had
thoSe 'books and put -together. the fact,that.he had
10 taken pieces from these books to put in his manifestos as
11 drafted, edited and submitted those-manifestos while he was
12 committing a series of boMb:attacks throughout the United
• :
13 States. • ' •
14 Chairman Hatch. If the Senator will' yield, it .is 'new,
15 with-regard to the PATRIOT Act, in ,bringing the laws against:.
16 domestic terrorism up to speed with other laws.
17 Mr. Mueller. 'Right.
1 • Senator Sessions. You are right, Mr. Chairman. • That
• 19 is the fundamental point of it. •
20 -14r. Mueller: Thank you very much.
• 21. • Senator Session's. Director. Mueller; you are a
22 professional. We are So 'glad you are here at-this time in
23 history. .1 have followed your career when we were United
.24 States attorneys, and I have seen.you: in. the Department of
•
Justice. I think there are few people in America that have •
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tried as many cases, who- has been involyed in. as many
investigations, long before you reached the augusE position
you are in today, as a grassroots'prosecutor, working with -
FBI agents, DEA agents, intelligence agentsi and you are a
professional., You were always-known to be'a professional.
_ .
You were appoincted United States attorney under'the.C/inton.
administration and under the Bush or Reagan administratiOns.
You have:a bipartisan reputation, and we are glad you are
there.
NoW, one thing I am,concerned about, as we.go forward.
with the entry-exit visas intoAmerica, the biometrics that
are being discussed to bring some ability to-make this
. • ' --
system work. It seems to me that the United States, and
most other nations of- the world—
Chairman Hatch. Senator, your time is up, but if you
would like to finish that one sentence, that would be fine,
and then we will go to=-,
Senator Sessions. It seemsto me that we:need a system
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that stays consistent with our investment,.which is'
fingerprinting. That hap-proven. to work. We have got a •
system designed based on:that. Should we not, .as we expand
our,abilitx„ make sure that the' fingerprint utilization and
computer system works for us with 'regard to entries and
exits from America?
Mr. Mueller. Yes, it has got to be_ There has got .to
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be interoperability and expansion of the, system ourselves,
'working together .with the Department of Homeland Security,
to been the cutting edge of the hse of fingerprints and all
of its various manifestations.
Sehator Sessions. Thank you. It is utilized in every .
•
police department in America today, and it works •
"extraordinarily well::
Chairman Hatch.- Senator Durbin?
Senator Durbin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Director Mueller, thanks for being here, and thanks for,
being so accessible and so candid in•your answers, both'
before the Committee and in person.
.•
Jir. Chairman, I might also note that this is - a sad'
,anniversary. It is almost 14 months now since the Attorney
General has appeared before this Committee. I know he is a
:busy man and has extraordinary responsibilities, but so do
Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Powell, and they have made.
themselves available before the appropriate authorizing
committees time and time and time again.
I am 'troubled that, at this moment of national security:.
being A major issue and concerns about constitutional
liberties, that this Committee .cannot possibly perform its:.
constitutional responsibility .if the Attorney-General
continues to refuse to come before us. I mould hope that
you would appeal to him, personally.
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Chairman Hatch. Senator, he is going to come,in June.
Senator Durbin.. Come in June, so it will only be 15,
1
16 months since last,we saw him: I hope that when he comes,
it is not another hurried appearance; where those of us at
the end of the table are. told he has to be,offto:a noon
3
5
meeting. That has happened,before; and I hope it does not
happen again.
I Would like' to ask if--.
'Chairman Hatch. just so the record is• clear,' he was
8
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going to come at the end ,of March or in March, but then,he
11 got very sick--
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Senator Durbin. I ,am perfectly aware of the medical
, -
problems he faced.
Chairman Hatch. We will get him in'Iere.
Senator Durbin. It'will be great to see him.. It has
been a long time.
Let me ask you this, Director Mueller'.: Can you clarify .
something about Nicholas Berg? I am troubled by the press
reports that have,been out about him,-and what a 'tragedy
that this would happen to any person and be publicized in'a
fashion so that the world. and his family would know these,
barbaric circumstances that led to his death. It should be
condemned by everyone.
But tell me about this man. Was he detained in Iraq;
when he tried to leave because,he was under investigation or
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there was some suspicion, he had donesomething'wrong?
'.Mr. Mueller. My' understandingis that. he had bean'
detained by Iraqi-police officers. The circumstances under .
which they detained them, I am not sure are .totally clear:
He was detained. He came to our attention. We did an
indices check and determined that he:had had same tangential
Ye. .
association with Moussaoui, whom I believe you knoW was
arrested shortly before September _11th, whlch 'warranted us
doing follow-up interviews. %Ana we did follow-up interviews
with Mr. Berg, found.that he had, as far as we were
concerned, no association with terrorism. He was then
released.
At the.time of'hi-S' release, he was spokad'toby I
believe individuals of the CPA, and I believe' ouragents as
well, who urged him to. leave. • And my underitanding is that
CPA also indicated that if he 'did nOt have the wherewithal
to leave, they would supply it to him. He turned them doWn,
went to a .hotel. 'I also helieve.that there was a request..
made by CPA authorities that they be able to alert his'
family, and my understanding, 'and I would have to check on--
this, is that he declined that that bp done, and then be:.
became .missing from his hotel. 'It is indeed a tragedy, bUt
those are the circumstances, to the best of my knowledge.
Senator Durbin. Well, and of course it has been
publicized that his family went to Federal Court in.
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Philadelphia, if.I an not mistaken, trying to force hiS
release from detention so that he'could leave the country.
So it appears that there is some conflict as to his`'
intentions and .what actually occurred.
But -I think, you have made it clear for the record, and
I hope it is unequivocal, that'there has 'never been .any
'suspicion of,any wrongdoing or illegal activity-.bn his part.
Mr. Mueller. . No. As I said before, he was a'person we
interviewed in. the wake of September 11th, and the interview
indicated that 'he was not asaociated'in any' way with
terrorists, and that was again confirmed when we interviewed
12 him ,in Iraq.
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.Senate:_ Durbin.' Was-qi:e at any time wOrking,2with-s.
agency for intelligence or .any agenOy that you.are aware of
to try to gather intelligence?
Mr; Mueller. Not to my knowledge. My 'understanding
was he was in'- Iraq to. try, to develop his own .private
business that was related to cell phone towers, I believe.
Senator Durbin. Those are the press reports. And. I
also would like to switch; if I could, to an issue that has
been discussed over and over:here, and that is the PATRIOT'
Act, which'Z'yoted for and most members did, but I amhalso
co-sponsoring with Senator. Craig the SAFE Act in an attempt
to not eliminate the- PATRIOT Act, but rather, .in specific
instances, to require what we consider to be necessary
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safeguards within that Act.
. I. will concede,that a lot of work went into it, but I
think most Senators will agree that an act-of.this historic
moment moved through inrecord time. .It wasin light of our'
concern about the threat of terrorism. We tried to be
responsive. We put in a safeguard to say that'we would
• • •
revisit some of these ,issues. We would put sunsets on the
. -
provisions to make sure that they were wise in their
conception and being used in a fair and judicious fashion.
I am concerned, though, as I look at the provisions.in
the act; that we have just made some statements- here at the
hearing that I do. not .think accurately reflect the changes
in the lawthat-ar indlUded in'thiS"±VATicTOT`'.Act. ThiS
Section 213; the delayed notification, sneak-and-peek,'
depending on your personal feelings on this, clearly puts a
,standard of reasonable period into the, law as Eci.how long
. .
.you can. proceed without notification.
The court cases, as, you are well aware, 'said '7 days-,
and after 7 days,'atthat pdin, the Government has aburden
to come forward and explain why they are delaying the -
notificatiori. But this provision,.and this is on existing
law--the 7-day notification--but in the .PATRIOT Act what we
are dealing with here is virtually indefinite in terms of
notification.
. What we have tried to do—What Senator Craig and I have
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.1 tried to do--is -to provide specific exceptions for
circumstances that have been described here. We have said
that we would continue todelay notification'of a warrant if''
there was any possibility that notification would endanger a
life or physical safety, result in flight from prosecution
or a destruction or tampering- With evidence. Now, .I think
that Creates-a reasonable model; a.reasonable standard,
,which says that if yoU cannot establish one of those
elements, then at some point notification must be given.
What exception ao You think we have missed here in this
providing for notification that you think would somehow
jeopardize your work?
Mueller. e-ery inVestigation-is-different.,.
There are some investigations where delay of, yes, 24 hours,:
, would be sufficient.. There are some investigations where
delays of 30 or 60-days alight be entirely appropriate if it
'is.a large InVestigation. 'What the PATRIOT Act .I think
appropriately does leaves-the duration up to the judge. to
decide'on the ,facts'that are presented when the judge issues'
the order, and I have not.found judges reluctant to act and,
set parameters based on what the..prosecutors,and the agents
show them.
In terms of the changes to the'PATRIOT. Act that is
proposed by the SAFE Act, the elimination of seriously
jeopardizing an investigation I-thInk would adversely affect
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our ability' to set a set of circumstances before a judge
which shows that the deiayis'necessitated. by the unique
circumstances of investigation..
What .1 believe the SAFE Act does is leave in some more
narrowly defined bases for obtaining the delayed.
notification, but thee are a number Of circumstances. that '
come up in an .ii)Niestigation which I don't think you can
necessarily cubby-hole, but-that a judge lOoking at it can
say, okay, this Is going to seriously jeopardize an
investigation, and therefore I ought to delay the
notification for 60 or 0'days.
Se.n .a .t or .D u rbin. Director, I think that,.though I may ,
not agree. with -the, specific ‘ziangsa.f. , .1. think that -4,4..2.-c. ... ,
good-faith suggestion.
•.
Mr. Chairman, you have'suggested a hearing on the SAFE
Act, and when we get'irito it, I think, if we' are going to
trylto establish 'standards that meet your goals and ours, we:
are I think going to tighten it without eliminating the
expansion of Government authority to go after terrorism.'.
would like to work with.theChairman and the Director to
come up"with that language. I think ,that is important, and
maybe we can reach that goal. I hope that we can in the
course of what we are setting out to do.
I would also just like to make one comment' before I
close, and you have been very patient, Mr. Director, as. has
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the-Chairman; waiting for thoee of us in lowly status to
have our moment, but let me'jus.t say that many have said
- 3 here we just have not heard any'complaints about this
4 " PATRIOT Act. Well/ I do not think that that is,an
,. • 5 appropriate-standard when it comes to protecting our
d, freedoms in this country. ,Much of the- work being dOne under
7 the PATRIOT Act-will be done without the knowledge of the
8 person who may be having their rights violated, and so.they
9 may not even have knowledge that this'is going on when they
. 10 are the subject of. investigations or wiretaps "or searches
• 11 under the PATRIOT Act.
12. So I would' hope that we can still establish, as a
13. standard, that there...yery,,, very, efficient_ways for. this ,
Government to collect information which clearly violate the
Constitution,',..and we have to find a way.to draw a line to
preserve security in this society/While still maintaining'
. _
17 our mutual, oath to uphold the Constitution.
Chairman Batch.- Thank you, Senator.' Your time is up.
I have not used my time, nor. do I intend to; but let me:
just say that I think the PATRIOT Act is one of the most
misunderstood acts of legislation I have ever seen. The
media, and the public, and many of the pundits have:focused
on hypothetical abuses. But as my dear friend from ,
California, Senator Feinstein, has mentioned ,at a prior
hearing,,not.even the ACLU has been able .to cite .a single.
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