Taguba Report Annex 90: Testimony of Mr. Steve Stephanowicz Civilian Contract Interrogator, 205th Military Intelligence Brigade

Testimony of Mr. Steve Stephanowicz US Civilian Contract Interrogator, 205th Military Intelligence Brigade. Mr. Stephanowicz is a Navy intelligence specialist. He was employed by CJTF-7 to support operations in Iraq, specifically, Abu Ghraib prison. The interview covered his background as an intelligence officer and his understanding of the standard operating procedures at Abu Ghraib, the location of interrogations at the prison, techniques of interrogation as well as the rules of engagement for interrogations. He said “It wasn't in writing saying [the rules of engagement], "Do not go in there and do that." That was presented from when I arrived as, that's an area in which you could go in and interrogate the detainee”. Mr. Stephanowicz related several incidents involving detainee abuse, i.e. assault, use of dogs, etc. He also related his understanding of other detainee abuse and the filming of such abuse. Finally, he described the chain of command for detainee handling.

Thursday, February 12, 2004
Monday, October 18, 2004

civilian, was interviewed on 12 February
2 2004, as follows:]

3 Has anybody informed you as to the nature of your


4 presence here with us this morning?

5 A..

6 Q..

I'm amazed. Okay, so you were basically told to just

7 show up?

It's the extension of a 15-6 and I'm not Army, so I'm
9 not familiar with the extent of what a 15-6 is.
10 Q..

8 A..

That's fair. Let me go ahead then and inform you of

the nature of this interview. I'm Major General Taguba, the
12 Deputy Commanding General of the Coalition Land Forces Component
13 Command, -.eadquartered at Camp Doha, Kuwait. My Commanding
14 General, Lieutenant General David McKiernan, appointed me as the
15 investigating officer under the provisions of Army Regulation


15-6, wh1:11 gives us the authority to conduct the investigation,
17 and also the direction of General John Abizaid, the Commander of
18 CENTCOM, ventral Command. This investigation is to gather all
19 relevant facts and circumstances surrounding the recent
20 allegations of maltreatment of detainees at the Abu Ghurayb,


also Known as the Baghdad Central Confinement Facility, as well
22 as detainee escapes and accountability lapses as reported to
_3 CJTF-7. Now, we were also directed to investigate the training


ifio NZ 'f0
standards, employment, command policies and internal policies 2 concerniml.. the detainees held at Abu Ghurayb Prison. And we're 3 also to assess the command climate and the supervisory presence 4 of the 600th Military Police Brigade Chain of command.
5 I also want tc advise you that the course of our 6 interview will be recorded so we can capture the accuracy of the 7 questions and the responses for the record. So, do you have any 8 questions before we continue?


[Negative responSe.)

9 A.

10 • Sir, for the record, would you please state your full
name, your social security number, your job position and of
12 course your unit of assignment.
13 Sure. My name is


us.3m 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111I
15 as well an interrogator, who is employed by CJTF-7, to support
16 operations, KMI operations throughout theater, specifically, Abu

18 Q.

Thank you. When were you assigned to conduct your
19 present duty assignment?
20 A.

I arrived in country, in Iraq, on 5 October 2003, and

on 5 October, we arrived at the prison, as well.

1 Q. Prior to that, were you informed of the--I would
2 assume, Pack in the United States, as to the nature of your duty
3 assignmen!:?
4 A. To the extent of....
5 Q. What you were going to be----
6 A. Yes, I was informed that I was going to be an

7 interrogator, possibly at Abu Ghurayb or other facilities in
8 country.
9 Q. What was your job position back in the United States

10 prior to being informed that you were coming to Iraq?

A. For 6 months, I was off, roughly 6 months, prior to 12 that, : was off. And prior to that, I was mobilized from 13 November '01 until March of '03. 14 Q. Doing what? 15 A. I'm a Navy intelligence specialist. I was working 16 with DIA, Defense Attaché System. 17 Q. But you're no longer associated with the Navy, or are 18 you still on----19 A. I'm on Inactive Ready Reserve status, so I could come 20 out here on this deployment. 2 1 Q. Was your background pretty much on Navy intelligence,

1 A. My last, basically 2 years, have been involved on the
2 HUMINT side. And prior to that, between Intel analyst, as well
3 as imagery.

4 Q. Now, did you have a previous assignment that's
5 coincidental, even relative to what you're conducting today,
6 like a GTMO or Bagram or anyplace else?
7 A. You mean interrogation assignment?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. In a military setting, no, but my commercial training,

10 if that's what you're alluding to, has come from what I've done,
International Recruitment, similar training from my DIA
12 counterpact, I was a case officer, running sources, do business

13 development is the same thing as dividing and gathering your
14 networks, interviewing your possible staff that you might hire
15 or hire fpr other companies. It's the same hiring and
16 questioning process that you would through, an interrogation,
17 question...1g or screening series.
18 Q. Training, that sort of thing?

19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you have any experience whatsoever being directly
21 involved with interrogation of a detainee?
22 A. When I was operational, or provided operations and

23 supervision support out of the USDA [inaudible].

1 Q. Captain did? Did that set of instructions
2 include any familiarity at all cr refresher training on the
3 Geneva Convention?

4 A. No. 5 Q. Nc? Did you, since you were in that particular set of 6 experiences previously as a Naval officer in the Reserves, in 7 the context of other training that you conducted prior to your 8 assignment here, did you have any knowledge whatsoever or 9 training, interaction with detainees or through interrogative
10 means or detention include some knowledge or familiarity with
the Geneva Convention?

12 A. Yes, I have. In fact, I read up on that on my own, as
13 well as povided the--recently, I've used them again to refresh
14 and provide guidance for a friend of mine.
15 Q. But when you arrived here, there was nothing....
16 A. There was nothing formal in place pertaining to the
17 Geneva Convention, that's correct.
18 Q. But you were informed or at least had knowledge of the

19 contents of the provisions of....
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Did you have any assumption at all or any knowledge
22 that you, being a civilian contractor, also could be held liable

1 for any violations that might be consistent with the Geneva
2 Convention?
3 A. Absolutely. That was one of the first questions prior
4 to my arrival. And once I did arrive in country within our

5 organization, as well as within the military setting what
6 statutes the civilians fall under versus military members, which
7 are punishable by the UCMJ. Civilians are punishable, from my
8 understanding, under the Federal court system.
9 Q. Did you inquire as to what your status would be while

10 you're in a combat operating area, that your status, if you were

ever captured by anti-coalition forces, did you inquire into the
12 nature of what your status will be if you were captured or
13 detained?
14 A. From my understanding, since we are contracted, I just
15 assumed, because on my CAC card, it says we're covered under the
16 Geneva Conventions.
17 Q. But nothing beyond that.
18 A. No.
19 Q. So in a case where you may be held or detained or

20 killed or wounded in a combat area, it was never stipulated to
21 you in an'; clear terms?
22 A. No, not at all.

Q. Okay, all right. Let me move forward. You've been
2 there since the 5th of October.

3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And conducting interrogations or whatever you're being
5 directed to do, I'm not asking you--let me preface this, not

6 asking you the contents of any interrogation, but could you
7 elaborate a little bit on the typical operation of an
8 interrogation? I mean, when do you--is there a plan of sorts
9 that you discuss previously with a translator? Is there a plan

10 of sorts that you discuss with anybody from the MPs that are

holding the detainee, time, that sort of thing?
12 A. All the interrogators are assigned to teams, Alpha
13 through Charlie, through Echo. We're given--we'll just start
14 with a new case file.
15 Q. Sure.

16 A. Find the assessment, let's see where the detained has
17 derived from, what the circumstances of capture are. As the
18 interrogator, you sit down with your analyst. You go through,
19 find out as much information about the detainee as possible, the
20 capturing unit, check with the magistrate's office, review what
21 they have on file, collect whatever you need from to put in your
22 file to build up the foundation. At that point in time, you
23 schedule with your section chief as to the time of

1 interrcaation. In most of the cases I work in, I usually have
2 an analyst there with me, so I brief the analyst prior to going
3 intc the interrogation. To what depth and what extent, that

4 will vary with what the interpreter will receive. And also,
5 it's a matter of comfort and level of trust with the
6 interpreter, as well. Some, we use specifically as just--if you
7 want an umbilical cord of the interrogator. Others can become
8 more in depth who are assigned tc more of your high value
9 targets wro will become more actively involved and read up on

10 reports, Etceteras.

Q. Basically, do you typically work with the same
12 interpreter, or do you change around based on the nature of----
13 A. Recently, I've worked with the same interpreter due to
14 the sign_ficance of the case and the level of his expertise.
15 But prior to that, I had used a reasonable amount of the
16 interpreters.

17 Q. Is there an established or a set schedule, written or
18 otherwise, that says, "These are the detainees I want to
19 interview today?"

20 A. Depending on your case load, you work with your
21 section c17ief and you're organizing your schedule throughout the
22 time period.

1 Q. Let me be a little bit more specific. The detainees
2 that are held at Tier 1 A, they're held there for a specific
3 purpose that you're familiar with. In your interaction with the
4 MPs that are holding, or at least a company or a unit that is
5 holding that particular detainee, when you have a set schedule,
6 is that schedule articulated to them verbally or is it
7 articulated to them in a written form?
8 A. It's not articulated to them at all.
9 Q. So how does that happen?

10 A. In terms--you do your prep and planning. Depending on

1 the react_on and the information received or not received from
12 the previous interrogation is how you'll schedule and time your
13 next interrogation. In some cases, it could be late at night
14 due to tne fact that the detainee is less alert and is apt to
15 get more information because all they want to do is go back to
16 bed.
17 Q. Sure.
18 A. Versus a midday one when they're nice and relaxed and
19 had a good night's sleep. They're more responsive and are able
20 tc countermeasure us and etceteras. So, in terms of putting
21 those efforts, they're done within the operations section. I'm
22 nct outside with the MPs.

1 t.. Prior to that, it was the 519th.
2 Q. Was it the 519th MI Detachment?

3 A. Right.
4 Q. Was there a requirement to put an interrogation plan
5 in writincl?
6 A. Yes, you have to have a double-sided interrogation
7 plan, what your approach is, whether or not the detainee's
8 information has been researched, whether it needs national
9 agency check and background check etceteras, exploitation, any

10 type of requirements that are outstanding for collection against

1 HCRs, tnings along that nature. Then you turn it over and you
12 write out an interrogation plan. The one currently being used
13 now is an evolutionist one that was being used previously. So
14 it's been an ongoing living document. That's how they've been
15 documenting the process.
16 Who approved that plan?
17 A. Section chief reviews it. Then it goes to either the
18 NCOIC or the OIC.

,-, .

19 What governs that interrogation plan?
20 A. The rules of engagement.
21 Q. The rules of engagement. How long has that rules of
22 engagement been published?

23 A. As far as I know, since the time I've arrived.

l Q. It's been posted?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall that being briefed to you when you first
4 arrived?

5 A. We were given a--everybody, from a Khaki perspective,
6 and any people we bring in on board are given the rules of
7 engagement. brief. We have to sign that. Now, we've signed
8 multiple ,,ariations since we've arrived, but everybody has had
9 tc. read =hem and re-sign them.

10 Q. Does that interrogation plan look anything--I'm sorry,

1 rules of engagement, look something similar to that [while
12 showing document to Mr. 111111111111.111
13 A. This is the copy that was posted in the ISO.
14 Q. Okay. It was posted in October when you first
15 arrived?

16 A. No, this was posted--I'm not quite sure when they
17 posted it. They've had an 8 1/2 by 1: piece of paper up on a
18 bullet_n board. And then recently, I think it was in December,
19 I can't remember the actual time, it was early December, end of
20 February--November, when you go out through the doorway, there's
21 a hunch of pieces of....
22 Q. This particular interrogation rules of engagement was
23 posted, I believe, after Colonel Tom Pappas assumed command of

1 the Forward Operating Base Abu Ghurayb. And this particular
2 interrogation rules of engagement was approved by General
3 Sanchez because of differing and inconsistent practices done
4 during interrogation. Was that explained to you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So you just took it at face value that this was
7 revised due to other things that had occurred. Have you had any
8 knowledge of interrogators being disciplined for going beyond
9 the bounds of their authority?

10 A. Just recently. 1 Q. Which one was that?
12 A. Just seen members, I'm not sure from where--I was told
13 right when we arrived, there was an incident in the segregation

14 section where a soldier was----

15 Q. Segregation in the hard site?

16 A. Yeah, alpha section. It used to be isolation, but now

17 the new term is "segregation," the hard site. And they came in

18 fcr theif final, I guess, I wasn't sure if it's Article 15 or

19 what the procedure was, and people I had seen when I first

20 arrived were coming back in and reintroducing....

21 Q. Based on those infractions, do you recall the

22 Battalion Commander, Detachment Commander, the Brigade Commander

1 aathering all the interrogators and amplifying any kind of 2 corrective actions to be taken? 3 A. You mean right after this----4 Q. Right. 5 A. I mean, nothing strikes the mind. We've had recent 6 refreshers on rules of engagement. But citing, "Hey, this, X, Y 7 and Z happened. Do not do this. Do not repeat the behaviors," 8 and lessons learned from it? No. 9 Q. So you don't recall any of that. Moving a little
10 faster here. You made a statement that was dated the 22d of

1 January the events on the 20th of December. It was you,
12 Sergeant Eckron, you also mentioned John Israel in there, of
13 remanding or returning a prisoner back to the custody of the
14 MPs. 1 believe you mentioned Sergeant ISM and Staff
15 Sergeant MEI if I'm nct mistaken. Can you describe for us
16 t e even=s, what was going on?

17 A. After conducting our interrogation that evening, which
18 at that point in time, common practice was, we were afforded the
19 option to interrogate in the upstairs shower facilities or a

20 rear stairwell down in the far left corner of the isolation,
21 Alpha wing. When we had concluded our interrogation, we had
22 handed of the detainee to the MPs who came back to the

23 stairwell to receive the detainee. We proceeded forward. The

1 MP and t're detainee were benind us, handcuffed, restrained,
2 walked hin back to what we call the hole, which is a complete
3 segregaticn cell, no walls, there's no wires. The MPs placed
4 the detairee in the room. As we were getting ready to walk up
5 the steps•, heard suspicious sounds. They were suspicious. I
6 didn't seE anything. We heard something suspicious enough that
7 we confronted the MPs.
8 Q. What kind of sounds? Yelling? Choking?
9 A. Not a yelling, not a choking sound, an "Umph." You

10 know, if--the only way I can equate it to is if you're--and
you're ge-,ting in you're getting in a fist fight and somebody

12 hits you in the stomach, and "Umph," and they knock the wind out
13 of you.
14 Q. Now, the MPs would not have weapons on them at any
15 time, a baton or firearms or anything that you observed?
16 A. Batons, no, I've never seen an MP with a baton in that
17 wing at all. The MPs, it was common practice for an MP to carry
18 a weapon. They would have weapons in there in their staging

19 area. 20 Q. Although firearms are not included (inaudible] SOP on 21 allowing firearms in there while they're handling a detainee, 22 but there are other items that could be construed as a weapon. 3 A. Yes.
1 c. A knife....
2 A. Everybody--my rules are, meaning MI, no knives, no
3 Gerbers, rothing.
4 Q. None of that.
5 A. So we are sanitized. And that's strictly enforced on

6 a regular basis. Everybody's checked. I've gotten to the point
7 I don't even carry a Gerber anymore because it's not worth the
8 problem of taking it on and off throughout the day. So if they
9 were weas:Lng one, you actually couldn't see if they were or not.

10 At the finish, when we had walked, went upstairs and we signed

the detainee in the log, from that point, when the MPs were
12 standing around waiting for them to come back up, we confronted
13 tl-em, "What was that all about?" They weren't happy or
14 comfortabie with the fact that we questioned them on that. Once
15 that was done, we presented that to them, we went back into the
16 operations area. I spoke directly to Chief and
17 then we also----

18 Q. Illimpwas your ICE there?

19 A. Yes, he was the OIC at the time. Captainilill was
20 gone. Sha has been redeployed. Chiefillillgwas the OIC for
21 the evening, and presented it to him, as well as we went with
22 that to Cnief111111111 who was in operations, and we presented it
.3 to both of them.


1 C. That was a verbal report to them.
2 A. Yes.
Do you have any knowledge, whatsoever, of the use of

3 Q.
4 dogs in jrterrogation or in the detainees' cells?
5 A. In the detainees--for interrogation purposes?

6 Q. Right, to intimidate the detainee or other than for
7 what tne purpose is to search?
8 A. I know, just the searching aspect, I have not used

9 them as part of--using dogs to intimidate----
10 Q. Not you, per se, but rumors or anything of that sort,
but the use of military working dogs----
12 The only thing I've been a part of is walking down and

13 seeing the dogs doing the searches and in that capacity.
14 Q. Did you physically observe that, or did you just have
15 knowledae of it?
16 A. Had knowledge of it and one instance where I did
17 observe, was in one of my written statements, which I indicated
18 when I came down, my detainee was on three sessions of a managed
19 program. So given that, he was then under medical supervision,
20 trying to determine if the doc was in yet for the psychological
21 supervision. It was right around the time when then the
22 psychologist came on board. So we had been monitoring all the
h3 different facets, mental, physical well-being. And he had

1 problems with his feet swelling up, so I went down to check on
2 him, check his condition. And at that instance is when they
3 were doinc the cell checks, the detainee was not in his cell.
4 The detainee was still in the hole at that point. He was in

5 between the sleep management program in which he was put into
6 his isolation cell, or I should say, in the hole. And from
7 there, the MPs were going to check him, the hole, and that's
8 where I seen the dogs. They were barking at him; they went in
9 and checked his area. The dog continued to bark. And given a

10 normal operating environment, seeing--since he was my detainee,

I did ac ask the detainee two or three questions pertaining
12 particularly to the operation as to why we were checking the
13 detainee And from that point, walked out, the MPs, the dog was
14 still working, barking and going through. So I don't know--I've
15 never gone through and seen what they do when they search his
16 cell and what have not. And once that pretty much finished, sit
17 around and watch for a little while longer, and then I went up
18 to my area.
19 C. Just for clarification, where in that hole then, the

20 aetainee was in his cell with the dogs in his cell?
21 A. The only time that the detainee was in the hole with
22 the dog was for about a brief 8 to 10 seconds. The detainee was

1 on the back side of the wall. The dog was being held on a short
2 leash.
3 But then, in other words, you assumed or at least were

4 informed that a search was being conducted?

5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you know that when they do a search of a
7 partict_lax cell or particular area that the detainee is not
8 supposed to be in his cell with the dog present?

9 A. That I did not know.
10 Q. Because that could be construed as using a military
dcg as part of the search, or could be construed as part of the

12 interrogation process.
13 The night there was some shooting incidents in there,
14 riots that you may have known about or have direct or indirect
15 knowledge about, were you asked to at least participate or react
16 tc that particular shooting incident that happened on or about

17 t}-e 24th of November?
18 A. I was down there for a brief time, a short time span.
19 Te nigh: of the shooting, I wasn't there for the shooting. I
20 was working in the JDIC, the ICE. They called the majority of

21 the interrogators down, with "they," meaning the command, that
22 was Coicy:lel WIN and Chief 1111111111 They requested a large
23 number of interrogators to go down because they just did a

1 shakedowL of the Iraqi police and they were suspected of
2 arrestinq seven, eight Saddam Fedayeen members, and they were
3 doing on-the-spot interrogations in the passageway that leads
4 down tcwid the segregation section.
5 Q. There is a gate there that separates the rest of the
6 hard sitE:, I believe, with the tier. Was the inspection being
7 done there?
8 A. Yes, from that section all the way up to the--you come
9 in from the Alpha, Bravo section, that tier, from where that

10 gate is up until the Iraqi police, first tier there.

Q. So they mobilized all the interrogators. Were you

12 inside Ter 1?
13 A..No.
14 Q. No: at all.
15 A. The only time I went in was,
16 was the next day or that night, because
17 the shoong was.
18 Q. Sure.

shoot, I don't know if it
I wanted to see where

19 A. That's also a detainee that I had been working on from
20 tt-e time Ln which he was brought in.

21 Q. The guy who got shot.
22 A. Yes. And actually, I was supposed to go in and
z3 interrogate that night with that person.

1 C. But somebody else interrogated him.
2 A. No, not from my understanding.
3 Comments were made by MPs that there were two civilian

4 interrcaators who were inside his cell, that one was a female
5 translatol, along with a military working dog detachment. Were
6 you aware of that?
7 A. No, I'm not.
8 Q. Were you ever informed that that existed during that

9 period c time?
10 A. (Negative response.]

Q. Were you aware that Colonel 1111111was there at the
12 time, as well?
13 A. For that interrogation? 'No.
14 Q. Let me go back tc locations of interrogations. Where
15 are the authorized sites for interrogations normally conducted?
16 A. As of today?
17 Q. As of then.
18 A. As of then? I believe we had the steel site, which
19 was located right outside Camp Vigilant; the wood site, which is
20 behind isolation--segregation section. And then three

locations within segregation, itself, two showers on the upper
22 floors, and then the stairwell in the back corner of the first
z3 fLoor.

1 being usec, utilized for interrogation was both to protect the
2 interrogators, and this is for safety requirements.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. But let me understand then, but is it an approved,

5 established procedure in your experience as an interrogator that
6 interrogations are done in the cells, themselves. There's no
7 prohibiton, whatsoever----
8 A. Nc, it wasn't prohibited. It wasn't in writing
9 saying, "Do not go in there and do that." That was presented

10 from when I arrived as, that's an area in which you could go in

and interrogate the detainee.
12 Q. In terms of training though, were you experiencing
13 that or at least folks knew it was common practice of doing an
14 interrogation immediately in the cell?
15 A. We reviewed our plan as to where the detainee would
16 sit or stand. So in terms of other than like personal knowledge
17 of self defense and knowing that my number one protection of the
18 team that goes in with me is the protection of my interpreter,
19 which is always closest to the doorway for safety reasons,

20 fcllowed by the analyst, if you have a supporting analyst there,
21 and then myself, or the interrogator last. In that term, when I
22 have util_zed doing an interrogation in the cell, the detainee
_3 would Si: down and you would be standing, so to make it not a--

1 at least you have a partial advantage if there were something to

2 go awry.
3 Q. Well, it's pretty confining in that particular area.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are the doors typically closed when the interrogations
6 are being conducted?

7 A. when the segregation section was full and you had say,
8 for an example, four people brought in, you know, suspicious or
9 caught in the act of placing IEDs. They have personnel that had

10 been in segregation that were customarily in the same general
a:ea. Sc, you would close the door to try and muffle some of
12 the sounds of the interrogation because once it goes out,

13 everybody talks and there's so much cross-chatter as far as the
14 environment of the inter-ogation. Because at that point in
15 time, we didn't have a hard site so----
16 Q. Exactly, that's my point.
17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. You were pretty much in a common area, regardless of
19 the situa•lion.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And we visited the JDIC, the interrogation room is
22 rather confined there, as well. In other words, contents and
_3 other inJividuals are viewable on the other side of the tier are

pretty mu;:h held in strict conference. So I'm rather curious as
2 tc why the practice, whether common or not, of doing the
3 interrogation in the site themselves, where exchanges, questions

4 and answers could potentially be heard by the other detainees,


in that regard.

6 A.

My feeling was, it was a push for operations, keep
7 operations going.
8 Q.

But at the same time though, it's also safeguarding
9 information. So I convey .that to you because the contents of
10 your interrogation and the contents of the information that you
gather are of a sensitive nature. Is that right?
12 A.

13 Q.

Is there a practice today about conducting

interrogations in the cell?

15 A.

I would say short of going up and asking questions,
16 not for interrogations as previous. Like it's not uncommon for
17 me to go in and visit my detainee. I would report to the
18 detainee. I'd go in and ask common questions. I don't ask
19 tactical Dr strategic questions. So, once we've been afforded

20 the opportunity to expand our interrogation setting, the

sensitive questions are dealt with in that environment, the 22 general familiarities and rapport building are what the focus _33is, and only the focus.
1 Q. Post-interrogation, you've concluded the interrogation
2 of a particular detainee, and then the additional information is
3 conveyed to the MPs in terms of a sleep management, meal plan or
4 terms cf isolation, segregation, that sort of thing. How is
5 that ccnvEyed and to whom is that conveyed to?
6 A. Post-interrogation, you conclude, you go back, you
7 return the detainee to the possession of the MPs. Regardless if
8 things went well or unwell, say, a lot of times the MPs will--
9 you don't. discuss the details of the interrogation.

10 Q. Sure.
A. What they will ask, you know, "Was he cooperative?
12 Was he not.?" "He was all right, so, so," whatever. And

13 pertaining to the meal management, because, at least in my
14 si7uation, I've been in the visibility of the detainees, I've
15 had to continue to be diligent as to what we do. I brief the

16 MPs as to. "Okay, what's the reaction been when you check on the
17 detainee," as to the common characteristics. "Has he been
18 responsive? Has he been staying awake? What's the response
19 been to, iou know, on an approved plan where he gets 20 minutes
20 of sleep. -A few hours later, he gets a .50-minute block of

21 sleep. Aid we want to know how he's responding. Is he staying
22 awake? Is he fighting, resisting? Trying to get feedback and

1 go either way. Sc that, in terms of debriefing, and that's what
2 we're doing, we want to make sure.
3 Q. In your statement, you mentioned that, you described a

4 sleep malagement, meal plan, that the instructions are given to
5 the MPs, That this particular detainee would get only 4 hours of
6 sleep ove: a 24-hour period.

7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. You stated that that's provided to them in written
9 form----

10 That is provided--yes, that's provided to them in a

1 written format that has to be approved. I write it up, it goes
12 to the CIC . From there, it goes to Colonel Pappas. As long as
13 everythimg is within the rules of engagement, which he's
14 approved zo sign off on, then signed back to me. They do look
15 at the sThedule of what the hours are, when it starts, when it
16 finishes and when the detainee will get sleep. We calculate the
17 minutes and make sure it's 240 minutes every 24-hour period of
18 time.
19 Q. Total.
20 A. Total. And as well as, after 72 hours of the sleep
21 managemei: program, or sleep, meal management program, then they

22 get 12 ulinterrupted hours of sleep. And then they can resume
_3 the program again.

1 Q. One more time. And then it's given back to you, do
2 you give that to the MP guard or do you give that to their
3 supervisor?
4 A. From when I've joined him--when I first started doing
5 itit was handed to the Alpha/Bravo NCO who was located there.


6 And that's. just been a customary practice, is to give it to them
7 and they verbally hand it over when the shift changes.
8 Q. And they execute it.
9 A. Right.

10 Q. The only reason why I say that is because, you give it
tc a gua:c1, a guard during the day, let's just say for example,

12 is that h_s understanding may not be conveyed to the next guard

13 relievin(3 him on the shift. And if it's understood that it's 4

14 hours f.): every 24 hours and not counting for all the minutes to

15 accumula:e to 240 minutes, you know, don't you think--curiosity,

16 or do you care whether that's being conducted properly or do you

17 monitor That or do you leave that to the conveyance of the guard

18 that's eKecuting that set of instructions?

19 A. My experience has been when I've given it to the

20 NCOIC, ti.y've reflected that they are the one in charge and

21 that it 4.iS their responsibility to hand it over to the next

22 shift, ex.:ept they do shift briefs. So when that's conveyed to

1 me, and tat was the operating procedure from what I understood
2 from a VOCO, verbal, that's the language that I proceeded----
3 Q. Did they show you any kind of record of all that they
4 are--10 minutes here, 20 minutes there? Did they show that to
5 you?
6 A. Given that it's on the schedule, they have--you know,
7 when I go down and ask, "How's everything going? How's the
8 program going?" They say, "Yup, fine, things are going fine."
9 Some MPs check off the times, making sure they go through and do

10 it. Others, I've never seen a logbook of them monitoring and
managing, that sort of thing.

12 Q. Provided it's conveyed to you that you've accomplished
13 the miss_on. What about isolation and segregation? Two
14 different things, is it isolation and segregation, or just
15 isolation----
16 A. I've been informed that the new word for Alpha wing is
17 "segregation." We don't use "isolation" in our terminology.
18 Q. When were you informed of that, the new terminology?
19 A. The last couple weeks.
20 Q. Just the last couple of weeks? But the distinction
21 wasn't made then, it's just one terminology----
22 A. One terminology for Alpha Wing, Alpha/Bravo Wing;

23 that's isolation.

1 Q. But in terms of isolation though, I'm sure you're
2 involved with providing that type of a recommendation, approve,
3 whatever the case may be, as part of the post-interrogation
4 process. When you gave that sort of instruction, did you
5 stipulate anything of a special treatment, especially in the

6 sense of a negative as a matter of punishment?
7 A. In terms of a punishment in a special treatment, as I
8 clarified in my written statement earlier, my definition of a
9 soecial treatment was to--I have one particular detainee I've

10 been work.Lng for a good reasonable amount of time. The detainee

didn't lice getting a shower. There was no reason why the
1 2 detainee •couldn't have a shower in a reasonable, timely fashion
13 and made sure he had well grooming standards. The reason was
14 for that was because the way in which the detainee was at the
15 point of rapture and significance of the facial hair, the hair,
16 in and of itself on the being, and what that represented as part
17 of the approached plan. So, to neutralize that in the setting
18 of the interrogation was why that was recommended.

19 Q. To isolate him.
20 A. His special treatment was, I had quite often said,
21 "Please make sure his beard is shaved. Please make sure his

22 head is shaved. Please make sure he gets a shower. Please make
_3 sure he takes care and brushes his teeth, because he has really

1 bad oral hygiene." When you're close and interrogating in a
2 small room, it's rather pungent. So, that is what my definition
3 of special treatment is and was very well defined.
4 Q-in terms of isolation, have you ever given
5 instructions to the MPs that isolation is required for a
6 specific detainee or any detainee for that matter, to be
7 interrogated?
8 A. You mean, throw him in the hole?
9 Q. Right.

10 A. Only if had that, you know, if it's part of my plan.

Q. If it's part of your plan.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Let me ask you this, in your experience as both in the
14 military and civilian. What is your understanding of iso]ation
15 and for how long would you isolate----
16 A. A detainee, in terms of this environment, through my
17 experienc•? has been according to our rules of engagement, is 30
18 consecutive days. After that, it needs a written statement,
19 memorandum for the record. It needs to go up to General Sanchez

20 asking for an extension for an additional 30 days.

21 Q. Is there any understanding whatsoever of the 22 requirements of checking a detainee every so often within a _3 period of 30 days?
1 A. You mean have I ever left a detainee down there just
2 for 30 Cabs and not check on them?
33Q. Not you, per se, but the MPs.

4 A. No----
5 Q. Because you're the experience one and all the MPs are
6 going to do is follow your instructions as approved by competent
7 authority. A detainee is placed in the hole, as you call it,
8 for 30 dais. Is it common understanding or your assumption that
9 the MF is supposed to check on them every 15 minutes----

10 A. If you're talking about "the :hole," the MPs are

supposed to--the MPs have informed me verbally that they take
12 tre detainee out for regular bathroom breaks. They make sure
13 the aetaLnee is fed, unless it's specifically requested by an
14 interroga•:or as something, for an approach, that they have the
15 appropria=e amenities that go with them in the hole, such as
16 water, food, they are fed. They're not to remove that unless
17 it's part of an approach where they're on bread and water or
18 something along that line. I've never seen--I've seen extreme

19 cases, but I've never encountered that.
20 Q. You've never encountered that at all.

1 Q. Have you ever given a set of instructions to the MP to
2 put anybody in isolation during the course of your employment
3 here from the 5th of October until now?
4 A. Not without my approval plans, not that I can recall.
5 C. Since you have access to Tier One A and Tier One B,
6 are you zImiliar with the guards and their guarding those
7 detainee:; in those cells? I'm not interested in----
8 A. No, I mean, when I go down there, I say "Hi," and see
9 their faces and things along that level.

10 Q Could you name some of those guards that were guarding
those de:ainees in those cells?
12 A. Given the nature, I rarely use my name down there, and
13 only propably four of the MPs, I only use their surname.

14 Because o' security reasons, I don't want anybody to know my
15 name dow-i there. So, I know Sergeant 111111.111 he's one of the
16 strong ter leaders, Sergeant11111111 who works the other shift,
17 excellent strong tier leader, Sergeant and

18 there's...I can't remember the name of the other one. Then I'm
19 familiar with the faces of other people down there and I can
20 point them out and say, "Yup, I know the guy may have worked

21 this shift," or "I've seen him on this shift."
22 Q. Is it a common practice for you as approved by the
A chain of command not to reveal your identity?

1 It's a common practice to use a pseudo name, if you
2 need tc, especially in that environment. At least that's been
3 verbally portrayed to me.

4 Q. Portrayed to you as approved by the chain of command?
5 A. If it's in writing, that I don't know.
6 Q. Did you ever ask?
7 A. No, I have not.
8 Have you used that technique before?
9 A. I only go by my name in Arabic, isle.' and that's

10 my proper name.

Q. Well, you're a pretty imposing individual, large

12 individua_, could be construed as very intimidating and you have
13 been named by some of the people as 11111111 and there are other
14 WM, I believe, that are also interrogators in that regard.
15 Was it tp your self protection not to be identified? I think
16 you also wear civilian clothes.
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. It's a common practice?

19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you don't think, or you do not know whether that
21 particular practice is approved by your chain of command.

22 A To use a pseudo name?
_3 Q . To use a name, to use your real name.

1 especiall¦ in the context of what we call "detainee operations," 2 Mr. especially in the context of your understanding 3 of the Gereva Convention, and without checking into the legal
4 implicatlons of that particular context, you could be held
5 liable fol anything as an employee of the United States
6 Government. Protection, obviously, is okay, but this being a
7 common practice, and my recommendation would be that it be made

8 a common practice to govern and protect the interest of the
9 United States Government inasmuch as we protect the interest of
10 the detainee.

Have there been any changes--I'm sorry, let me go 12 pack. Are you aware of all the allegations that were made or at 13 leas,: the investigation that was conducted by the Criminal 143Investigat.ion Division of allegations of detainee abuses by 15 guards that you know of that were associated with performing 16 their CutLes in Tier One A? 17 A. No, I'm not, only by rumor. 18 Q. Only by rumor. 19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So you don't know what Corporal 1111111 did or what
21 Sergeant did?
22 A. No.

_3 Q. Or sergeant111111111did, none of that?

1 A. Nc.

2 Q. What was those rumors? What did you hear?
3 A. The rumor I've heard is that videos and pictures were
4 taken of detainees, some performing illicit sex acts, or some
5 other type: of act, and it was filmed.
6 Q. It was filmed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Other than taking photographs of detainees for
9 identification, have there-been instances of detainees being

10 photographed for other than identification purposes that you

know of?
12 A. That I know of, no.
13 Q. Not any videotape or not in the conduct of an
14 interroga':ion?
15 A. No, because at this point, we don't do--other than
16 when they first come in screening, that's their only picture.
17 Q. Not at all.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay, based on what you heard through rumor of

20 detainee allegations--I'm sorry, detainee abuses and
21 maltreatment, was it conveyed throughout the command, 205th or
whoever else that you were placed under, of any changes

1 whatsoeve! to be made with regards to detainee and interrogation
2 operation:;?

3 A. From that, we were no longer would conduct
4 interrogations in segregation, Alpha/Bravo. There was no formal
5 command gathering and saying, "These are what the allegations
6 are. These are the things that are happening." It felt like a

7 type of non-discussion.
8 Q. Were those changes conveyed in a written form or a
9 formation of sort or a briefing by the commander or chain of

10 command?

A. The--I was told by the section sergeant that we are no 12 longer do_ng interrogations in segregation. 13 Q. When you first were informed of that, were you in a 14 meetinc o-f some sort? 15 A. No, I was with my sergeant--my section chief. 16 Q. Provided you that information that you were no longer, 17 as a matter of practice--18 A. That's correct. 19 . The interview paused at 1217, 12 February 2004, and reconvened 20 at 1225, l2 February 2004.) 21 Q. We just want to refer back to a previous question I 22 asked you with regards to the implementation of the treatment .3 plan, wha-. I'll refer tc as a treatment plan after an
13interrogation, that would be in the context of a sleep
management, meal plan, SMMP, or placing somebody in the hole, as
3 you referred to. But before I do that, what exactly is "the
4 hoie"?

5 A. It's the--when you went into the Alpha wing, just
6 say....
7 Q. Bottom floor, top floor?
8 A. Bottom floor, first cell on the right-hand side, steel
9 door--or metal door, and it's just a room in the wall, a

10 concrete room.

Q. A concrete room, no light, it would be just a bare-12 sided wal_ with a steel door. Is there any other access to that 13 like besides the door, itself, that you recall? 14 A. You can't--I don't think you can lift it up, because 15 they've a_ways opened it up to check in on the detainee. I 16 don't know if--17 Q. Is there a little peephole----18 A. Yeah, I don't know if that works. I've never seen 19 anybody use it. I actually think it's welded shut. 20 Q. Okay. So, it's welded shut today. Was it welded shut
21 before"'
22 A. As long as I know, that hasn't worked. A lot of the
_3 mechanIca, components in certain areas haven't worked.

But it was typically referred as "the hole," or
2 "thrown. Ln the hole."
3 A. Right.

4 Q. Do you know if anybody else, any of your
5 interroaators, associates referred to it as--or even intimated
6 to an MP to place somebody in there?

7 A. I mean, it's commonly used. I mean, I've known, like
8 the MPs, they've had a detainee who stuffed their toilet full of
9 a whole mattress that they tear up into pieces, they will take

10 the detainee out, and then as a form of punishment, will throw

the detainee in the hole.
12 Q. All right, so it's not exclusively just the
13 interrogators.
14 A. No, I mean, it's been for behavioral discipline,
15 people from Ganci, detainees coming over from Ganci who--and
16 things along that nature.
17 Q. Let me ensure, for a point of clarity here, that when
18 you gave « set of instructions to an MP to implement the sleep
19 management meal plan or whatever other set of instruction, you
20 mentioned that you conveyed that to the guard once it's approved
21 by the chain of command, typically a warrant officer or
22 [inaudible], up until that time, it was only approved up to
_3 whom, Colonel Pappas?

I A. If it was within the--like the sleep--like staying in
2 segregation for more than 30 days, everybody knows that goes to
3 General Sanchez.

4 Q. But before.
5 A. That has been the whole case. Colonel Pappas, you get
6 your--you fill out the request to put the detainee in

7 segregation. You put the detainee in segregation--well, you'd
8 send forward your request, give it to the chain of command. And
9 when it came back, then you'd put the detainee in segregation.

10 Q. But your understanding was that General Sanchez was to

approve that.
12 A. Right.
13 But before then, has it always been like that since

14 you arrived----
15 A. There's been circumstances where they've been able to
16 put the--they said, "It's okay, ao ahead and put the detainee

18 Q. Pending approval?
19 A. Right. So that, I have seen in the past.
20 Q. Because Colonel Pappas was not there until after the

21 19th of November.
22 A. Right.

1 Q. Sc typically, then, the--would approve such a
2 practice, or at least give authority----
3 A. It would be Colonel 1111111/
4 Q. So, that's provided, given to the MPs, assuming it was
5 done properly. Then you mentioned that then he would rely then,
6 without your interaction on that being executed with the

7 intention-----
8 A. Uhm hum.
9 Q. And there's no checks by you whatsoever.

10 A..

Other than on our own accord to go down and look after
our --

12 Q. Checks.
13 A mean, there are no other--no, there isn't a regular
14 schedule to go down and make sure the detainee has received
15 this. : mean, it's the initiative of the team or the operation,

16 itself.
17 Q. So, that procedure is where a set of instructions
18 identifvIng the term, provided to the MP for execution with
19 a...how would you call it, precise supervision other than what
20 the MP understood his instructions to be. In other words,

21 everything is relegated to the MP to execute that term.
22 A. Yes.

1 V • .And that's common practice, I take it. But do you
2 feel that kind of strange that I'm giving my own set of
3 instructions for somebody else to execute, that in the case

4 where something happened to that detainee and that MP is then
5 held liable for that set of instructions?
6 A. I feel it strange that when I've asked for rules of
7 engagement for the MPs and standard operating procedures for the
8 MPs, that they requested one, the people who work the hard side
9 requested one from the chain of command and they didn't have one

10 to provide myaelf.

Q. The MPs.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You requested what their detention rules of engagement
14 were?
15 A. Exactly. Yes, I find it curious, and I have asked.
16 Have I written it up? No, but I have asked on numerous times as
17 to the specifics in detail for the rules of engagement other
18 than what is on the rules of engagement in the signature block
19 that we go through.
20 Q. I would find it curious, as well.
21 A. As you should.
22 Q. You're providing a set of instructions to someone to
_3 execute, and if something ever happened to that detainee, you

1 would Linc it curious, as well, and interesting that you would
2 be held liable for that. Of course, a lot of that could be
3 either mi5.interpreted or misunderstood or just easily
4 understood.

5 Now, the rules of engagement here today that you said
6 were nct the same, were somewhat revised based on things that
7 have happened in the past. The improved interrogation
8 operation:. and operation procedures, were those the same ones or
9 somewhat adjusted to meet the current operating environment?

10 A. I guess these are the ones we use now or the ones we used back then.
12 C. Before Colonel Pappas showed up. 13 A. I can't answer the question because we've had at least 14 five iterations that I've signed on rules of engagement changes. 15 Just your best.... 16 A. I think they're pretty much the same. Actually no, I 17 think tho5;e are the one--Colonel Pappas came on board, these 18 came on. I mean, the intent was there, they're just written on 19 a different format. This, like I said, this didn't come out
20 until....
21 Q. After he showed up.

A. Right.

Q. Notice in the right-hand column there, there are two
2 things that come to mind right now, the use of military working
3 dogs, ycu made a statement that said basically that you

4 commented on that you noticed dogs that were either conducting a
5 search cr just their presence, that indicate on here, the use of
6 military cogs today must receive CG's approval. So your
7 understanding was, the presence of military dogs was a common
8 practice that point in time, whether they're being held or
9 being usec, for searches or for other purposes?

10 A. My interpretation was, if you were going to be in a
formal interrogation setting in the booth with a planned

12 interrogation procedure, that's where that approval needs to be
13 met. In terms of, if you're in the environment of whether it's
14 in Vigilant, Ganci, we used to be--in the civilian population
15 until they modified our access for safety reasons. We're not
16 allowed to go into Ganci or Vigilant, that presence of military
17 working dogs was a normal occurrence. That was my
18 understanding.
19 Q. That's your understanding. Relative to that, there

20 was Ganci, Vigilant----
21 A. As well as isolation, meaning all the detention
22 facilities.

1 Q The process that which just the operating environment
2 there today, Ganci is pretty much an open environment, even
3 though yoL had Camp Vigilant exposed, so is Vigilant for that
4 matter. Eo the only ones that are confined in the term of this
5 particular environment was that at JDIC where you hold the

6 interrcaation, or even the hard site was exclusively separated, 7 confined, and not exposed. Do you agree with that? 8 A. That it's an exclusively confined space? 9 .Right, you're not exposed to any observation

10 whatsoever because you're not conducting, at least that we're

aware of, including interrogation inside of Ganci or Vigilant,
12 because any interrogations, the detainee is removed from that
13 particular site to another site.
14 A. At one point, you could conduct an interrogation at
15 Ganci.
16 Q. Is there a facility at Ganci to----
17 A. Each Ganci compound, I think, I don't know if there's
18 more than eight now, I know it's grown a lot since it's been off
19 limits--
20 Q. It's a big compound.
21 A. Each compound has its own command tent. And within
22 the command tent, you could probably fit three or four, you
.3 know, in a living space. You know, a couple tables and you

1 could sit in there and ask the detainee questions and

2 interrogate the detainee there.
3 Q. But in the same environment as that, you would find
4 the JDIC. In other words, they're confined----
5 A. You can find---
6 Q. ----enclosed so nobody else could hear comments or

7 answers or responses to the questioning associated with that
8 particular interrogation?
9 A. I mean, let me make sure I didn't--yes, they're

10 completely....

Q..Just so I understand, have you ever done any 12 interrogation in Ganci or Vigilant? 13 A. Yes, I have. 14 Q. But not in a setting where people could hear the 15 questioning and the responses. 16 A. In the back of the tents right there, it's right next 17 to the compound and the detainees are walking around. I mean, 18 they're only 10 feet away. You ask the MPs to keep the 19 detainees away and they pretty much just go about their
20 business.
21 Q. So that's kind of a common practice, an established
22 practice.
_3 A. Right.

1 So in all of the guards now, based on your 2 understancing today on these current rules of engagement, things 3 like chance of scenery, dietary manipulation, sleep adjustment,
4 isolation for longer than 30 days, sleep management, 72 hours
5 max, sensory deprivation, 72 hours max, must be approved by the
6 Commanding General, as you know it today. This is how you

7 understand it? Since it's posted in the common area----
8 A. Right, yeah. I mean, sleep management....
9 Q. In excess of----

10 A. In excess of 72 hours.

Q. Right.
12 A. And any of the ones I've done, they're never in excess
13 of 72 hours. They've always mandated--I've always made sure
14 they have actually had more time than the 12-hour minimum. And
15 usually, it's been, on average, one day.
16 During our tour of the facility, you mentioned that
17 instructions are given to the guards. In one particular
18 document that we saw that was signed by a warrant officer
19 basically said, prisoner isolation, segregation, dated the 4th
20 of February. You mention it is now, the terminology that is now
21 used, "segregation." This particular memo, we saw "segregation"
22 and "isolation" signed by the warrant officer. Now, you said
z3 tnat they might approved by the chain of command. In this

1 particular memo, it didn't stipulate how long for isolation or
2 how long for segregation. Are you aware of maybe perhaps there
3 is still a misunderstanding of sorts common to the chain of
4 command that establish procedures when they have not been
5 clearly understood?
6 A. Yes. And the reason--when that was clarified to me it

7 was by the JAG officer, Captain who specifically--
8 when I worked with him. More recently, prior to his departure,
9 was "No, the proper terminology is 'segregation'."

10 Q. Not both.

A. No, it was spelled out very clearly to me. We don't
12 use that word; it doesn't exist. It is segregation. I've even-
13 -the way in which I wrote my notes and everything, it comes out
14 "segregation."
15 Q. All right, I just want to confirm the commonality of
16 consis:en:y.
17 Well, I don't have any more comments, sir. So, I'd
18 like to ask you though, your recommendations to improve the
19 environment with regards to detention operations. I mention to
20 you that detention operations is not an isolated operation.

There is a purpose to why those people are being detained, and
22 that's, of course, your role in that matter of collecting
information, collecting intelligence whereby it is a useful set

of circumstance for them.... Sc what will be your

2 recommendation now that you've been here for 4 months?


The MP mission, whether that remains an MP mission
4 becomes commercialized, the MI operation, they need to
5 amalgamate in one form or another.

3 A..or

One centralized....

The MPs, if they're going to be running it, as far as
8 I know today, there is not a JAG officer on site to advise the
9 MPs..

7 A..

asked, "Do you have a JAG officer? Where's your JAG
10 officer?" Because we refer to ours, if needed. And she said,

"We don't have one on-site." So, they didn't have access to
12 their tooLs. Having them meet an operating procedure that works

for both and everybody's clear on it, everybody's briefed on it.
14 And a continuous, no verbal deviations of the rules of
15 engagemen t . That's--why have the rules of engagement if you're
16 going to verbally change something or approve something or to
17 approve something verbally. It totally throws your rules of
18 engagement off and makes them void, in my eyes. Having a
19 liaison rep that works and dedicated if they're going to
20 maintain a large presence of people in segregation, that they


are coordinating with the MPs, they're coordinating with MI, and
22 they are briefing the teams. If that thing does happen, that
_3 they brief the whole section. The International Red Cross just

came through not that long ago. Not one brief, and I've asked
2 all the way up to the JAG, from the MI, "Please give us a brief
3 so the trcops and everybody else can learn what the value of the
4 Red Cross visit was. They're not bad guys. They're good guys."


And they're saying "Yes, yes, we'll do one." Well, they're
6 gone. Nobody knows why the Red Cross was here. The 202d is in
7 now. The will not gain any value from the Red Cross visit

8 other thar the command who, what was transferred over to them,
9 but the troops won't. The information is not flowing down. You
10 do a formation. They do them two, three times a week for the

military members. They could do a better job of disseminating
12 information from a strong command presence, not necessarily just

from an NCOIC or OIC of the operation.
14.I think the training that, you know, techniques,

things from Huachuca for interrogation, analyst skills, the
16 development skills are coming along really well. There's a lot

of self-initiated programs, so I give him hats off for that. 18 But maintaining with what we are protecting our assets and 19 protecting the detainees, we really, continuously need to 20 reemphasi;:e. And you know, I offered and have helped 2 1. participate in providing that, you know, going into the 22 direction. If you have a complaint, you need to muster up and _3 have a soLution if you're going to jump in and do it. So, I
think everybody who works in there needs to--it's the same
2 attitude for everybody.
A common understanding is what.... Were you aware--


4 just one more question, please. Were you aware of a visit by

5 Major General Miller, who .is the Commanding General of GTMO? At
6 least his presence or anything that was cascaded down to you.
7 That happened in October or November.


9 received & lot of DVs, and he--I heard that he was coming in. I
10 don't know if he ever came in, because I never seen or met the

8 A..remember hearing of--I think that was right when we

2 don't know.
12.0..conveyed as to the purpose of his visit

Nothing was

or - -
14.The purpose ofjl-isvisit was not conveyed.


What about General Ryder, who was the Provost Marshal

16 of the Army, who has also visited the facility?

I am not aware of 18...do you have any other closing comments that you
17 A..that.

Q Okay,
19 want to convey?

20 A..

No, sir.

21 [Mr..was duly warned and the interview concluded at 22.
1245, 12 February 2004.]