Fay Report Annex: DOD Interview re: Conditions at Abu Ghraib Detention Facility

Interviewee was assigned to AG as the deputy commander for Joint Interrogation Debriefing Center.
Recalled telling COL Pappas of the OGA's activities, they would drop off detainees without prior notice, would not let the interviewee and others into their interrogations and they would not share any intelligence learned from their interrogations.
Recalled being told that a detainee had died, and OGA placed the body in a body bag and placed ice in it.

Doc_type: 
Interview
Doc_date: 
Saturday, May 15, 2004
Doc_rel_date: 
Wednesday, March 2, 2005
Doc_text: 

SWORN STATEMENT
For use of the Ion. see AR 190415: me proponent agency is =SOPS
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FIIE NUN'.BER
DISCLOSURE:U TIME
2. DATE (rrrYANDO)
1. LOCATION 2004/05/14V l
OSJA, DARMSTADT, GERMANY 7. GRADUSTAT US 6 SSN
M Al
LA
AN1ZATION OR ADDRESS

G3 EXERCISE, HEIDELBERG, GERMANY APO AE
HQ USAREUR -
9.
WANT 10 MAKE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT UNDER OATH:
I arrived to Kuwait in Januar,. 2003. We were sent to Camp Virginia. I was the Assistant S-3 for the 205th MI BDE. We had
BN. 323rd MI BN. 325th MI BN, 302nd MI BN, 1st
several units who were under the 205th MI BDE; 519th MI BN. 165th MI

The 205th changed command from COL PARRISH to COL PAPPAS the 1st MI, and a company minus from the 141st MI BN.
03. When COL PAPPAS took over, we had interrogation operations in 3 locations in I some int a decision
V BDE S-toso
of July.
was made to consolidate all operations in one location This locate was Abu Ghraib. Initially,
t o down to Abu Gliraib and be the deputy commander for Joint Interrogation Debriefing Center (JIDC). But
suV

had to go on another mission to Florida and I was sent by COL PAPPAS to be the deputy because we were getting
intelligence coining out ofthe JIDC. now and not watt. Apparently . LTG Sanchez was not happy with e
p sure to setV added J1DC Deputy.role to my
1 was still the Assistant S-3 and my OER Support Form did not changc. 1 basically
interrogations. up OER even though I left a captain with the 205th MI BDE to assume my Assistant S-3 role. COL PAPPAS did not tell me to chec
care of detainees He didn't tell me to ensure everyone was in compliance with the IROEs or the Genevaon the well -hem2 or
Convention I do remember seeing the policy that specified that LTG SANCHEZ had to approve certain interrogation techniques.
1 do recall the FRAGO categorizing detainees.
eu u a r FRAGO referencing the treatment of detainee. however,
Abu Ghraib facility andI doV
the JIDC Deputy.
AfterV returned from Florida, I remained as viss told me to implement the
recommence' the Iger Team concept be implemented. COL PAPPAS and V
concept The concept I was told was lxinterrogators, lxlinguiso I xreport writer, and lxanalyst. My orders were to go to Abu

Vi wararsivtheed at Glualb and set up the Tiger Teams to conduct interrogations This was a vocal order not written on paper. -
t number) of personnel from the 519th MI BN.
Abu Ghraib. there were a number (I do not re V alreVconclude
as thVeVThe 5V
Interrogations Control Element (ICE) OIC a V V hat COL PAPPAS' interrogations operations and had a system in place When I re ayed to
initially opposed to it. IThere were sonic tension between 519th and 325th MI (325 arrived the same time I
plan was, they were
did) The issue between both battalions was who was better than who. When the 325th was mobilized, they had to go through validation with the 519th. The banalion was validated twice Then there was a Brigade field exercise and the 325th was the battalion who had to set up all their equipment and run the ranges. The soldiers even had to pull parachute detail. When the 32511 asked if some of their soldiers could go to airborne school. they were told no. There were several congressional from both
and officers from the 325th. The complaint was that they were not doing their mission. This angered the Brigade
soldiers
Commander, therefore. the 325th soldiers were sent to Afghanistan before the soldiers of the 525th MI BDE. Plus, the Brigade commander decided he would demobilize the battalion. The 325th was demobilized only to be brought back on active duo: shortly after we were demobilized.) At Abu Ghraib, the MPs Were in charge of security of the place and moving the prisoners around. The MPs control the entrances to the prison (Hard Site and Tiers) MI was responsible for interrogation operations. The quality of life was not good. We were operating out of tents and 325th soldiers were living in the old Laundry room. 519th were living in tents erected in the building with the 700th MP BN. Both MPs and MI bad their own Living Support Areas. We were being
frequently and had attempts to breach our site often. Even though we were attacked regularly, we were
attacked with mortars buildings. COL
operating out of tents. Not until we had a mortar attack that killed some soldiers did we m v V

S3, 205th MI, and
• , 0 ID 4,la me daily guidance and I would send my correspondence to COL PAPPAS, V rations I would ass that
'te th 1 When a FRAGO came out specifying in rrogation
'Deputy Comm•V V
V
ho passed it toV then on to the soldiers. When I arrived, I recal .
el ing me what we were allowe to o or not do with detainees. The first week we f use on me fol inued their Interrogations. As we discussed the Tiger Team concept, I tried to explain t
earn reorganized. Meanwhile.
that COL PAPPAS wanted this implemented. It took us about a week to get the Tiger e so tiers were complaining that the concept made no sense. I told them to just do It because that is what the BDE Commander wanted. Once GTMO representatives arrived on site and explained to everyone the concept and make up of the team understood it The concept was actually an interrogator, a linguist, and an analyst with the support of a report writer
AXING SlATEMEN1
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DATED 2004/05/14
DARIVISTADT. GE
TAKEN AT
STATEMENTDE
.
.
W.AnimAr/.9. STATEMENTthe 25th and 519th soldiers, but we agreed that the 325th would have the
I wanted to integrate both °sedan Rules of Engagement. I discussed this with

and
;old me that all the 325th were aware o them
1 any Geneva Convention but in the and the NCOIC brought all the interrogators
When I
and that they must do the right thing. arrived in early September. I assumed he wasaqui • to get annua training on this.
.together and explained to them how the interr me to work with = and that he, COL PAPPASfirst arrived, I was in charged. I was the Deputy for the
e that he said. 11 in 0 for CITF-7 and report togoing to be the Director but CO hat hi o e was role was. When we had
' ector and I aske P never spoke to me and told me wha
MG FAST.

meeting and we could not agree, he would provide guidanc.; and make recommendations but he was not the guy wc
worked issues such as getting a gym established. ensuring
He
would go to for operations. He kind of took over mayoral duties. had soldiers who would show up without their
lmet. Wc
. •, as flek vest. and he ng to Abu Ghraib. I would go to
mi
that soldiers bad thew perso equip
soldiers were through the 205th RSOI cell in Camp Doha 'on so he would talk to
would handle it.
our link withproblems
out of the mayoral
told me to get or assistance
ruga e. Ps for all units on site. We
the reviewers for
l
the MPs. c would attenelhe daily meed with interrogations.
He was ' I
when we needed it. He did -ye& he took
me. Onc
the target folders along with call oo specific interrogation issues, they spoke to

remained the Deputy. When ga c would-WAS operatic to never mentioned to me that one of his roles was to ensure the intelligence flow f o
ofr don't
individual to either shave it al
detainee abuse. 1 once saw a detainee with only part of his head shaved. 1 told the l to the prison and shave it at all (I do not remember who the individual was) Another time, three interrogators and a linguist w
took the detainee into a cell and made her
ons. They
requested that two of the female detainees be banded to them for interrogatiand requested that the soldiers be segregated
was notifiedtake her shirt off. Wc found out the following morning COL PAPPAS
initiated. The three soldiers invoked their rights, but before one of them invoked their rights, he said
and a CID investigation was Afghanistan. (I know nothing about the Afghanistan issue). had nothin to do with this incident or the death of the detainee in
he and I first questioned the hoguist, be denied he was there. Not until the MP identified him did he confessed W
When
being there but said he was outside the cell and didn't see anything. We requested from his language manager for his removal and
We sent a five page SIR because we wanted to make
r the name o
he was sent to another locatio that he did not have to send a five-page report. We
told mc to tell
sure we had all the vices will we tolerate any such incident. No night
F stated that had another female in the booth. Ihad a formation
o male to female interrogations would occur unless y
interrogations were aomin and sy:acm guys). The CACI contractors did not arrive until after
tly verify that all personnel were there (the ,
. • .. •..n after that, I do not recall. The Joint Manning
• ...
• •.•.B
strived and the TMO personnel helped us develop as developed by j The 1MD did not specify military
• •U•U••
it. Once it was complete. I se -.. — get feedback from Brigade on
. .. ....iii..1.-4,a0e1 . c.
from civilians It simply bad X number of Interrogators C...1TF•7 Plans Officer. He is the one who worked on the JMD. They just accepted U. I believe it then went up to
ew CACI contractors who arrived were approximately getting it filled by military or civilians. I had no say s
la One was returned because he did not have all the personal equipment. 1 spoke to thew Manager informing him t
linguist will be delivered to linguist were supposed to get their equipment pnor to coming out to o and Myself would Question Abu Grualb without his or her equipment. When they arrived on site, r interrogators. Maybe some
them on their background to get an idea where they wou ld
t I do not know how trained they were on the IROEs or Geneva Convention. We trained them and I got ass
nefed them on the IROEs and they signed the IROEs. I do not know if the Interpreters were also trained on believe
thc ICRC in the bard site unsupervised This happened three or four times. The MPs were supposed tothe IR .
sponsor them. The ICRC that came to visit, report that detainees were wearing women's panties. COL PAPPAS said that it better not be happening and this was not to happen. we brought everyone together and told them to ensure they followed the IROEs.
wearing.
the detainee'
no specifics given and no investigation was initiated In reference to clothing of detainees,
'civilian orange Jumpsuits and later on some were wearing blue jumpsuits This bee this was a colored jumpsuit 1 milled the MP S
There were
workers were also wean Of saw any
WO
Stated be would handle 1 never saw an
force protection concern
the detentirin facility but never saw any detainees totally naked. There were one or twowomen's underwear. I t
Government Agencies (OGA) would comae and drop off their detainees in our
detainees who had only underclothes on. Other
The 519th told me they had a problem with this because the detainees were not being accounted for, OGA would drop facilities. theyI
off detainees•without prior notice, they would not let us sit in their interrogations, and we never received any intelligence oss.
me he needed to meet with their b
gations. I told this to COL PAPPAS and
might have gathered from 's about 5'8, Caucasian, well built , hair
it boss showed up at an arranged tine.
not sure who I spoke to but s WC Wlwar
n. COL PAPPA
ut 45 yrs. He would show up every now a
longer than a military haircu
• ----
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TAKEN AT
STATEMENT OF
Oatore
ith OGA and allow them to bring detainees and not process them. I was told they did not want us to know who they were. I
STATEMENT have their finger prints. nuns yised COL Pappas that we should in process them under an assumed name, this way we would
scan and medical creening. Also, advised him we needed a memonindum of agreement because you do not want a detainee to die on us and they are not in processed. Who would take responsibility? He said ' I will', "I will.' Nothing changed. COL PAPPAS said that OGA did not want our interrogators to sit in their interrogations because this would open our interrogators to
give us a verbal on what they gathered
intelli cegathered with us. OGA would
operations. The ]IDC was an Army and
hat 0 .
liability. He siud did. g There was no • ii .!......
came in and told us that a detainee had
and stated that a report would follow 'but they never en
civilian run operations. One morning during the morning staff updatet _ _jut and that be was not go

' CO
L PAPPAS said o get
APPAS and 1 were y bag and placed ice in it
died. Both LTC P the body in was to an
this. OGA did not want to just take the dead body. They placed
secured the area. The next day the body was taken away on a stretcher to make it seem as if the detainee wI never saw or

anyone reference this i ncident.
while
autopsy was conducted, I was not privy to the result. I did not have to interview to he 1 toured. One night w
had knowledge of any photos or videos of detainees. I never saw any cameras in the bard site w that and told the

' IP . We stopped me. The MPs
waiking.arOund I saw an Iraqi Police (IPL talking to a couple of our imerpre • r
interpreters that they were not allowed in the IP area unless authorized

(toldhad
detention facility. We provided the MPs a list of personnel . Warta. we would rccommend they be
controlled the 'IP after duty hours in the
interpreter personnel that if he saw any linguist talking with the a ye tough
they were not there when I was there.
fired. I never saw any guard dOgs used during interrogations ,
round and they all reported to someonedifferent
Tbere were three batd ii on leave
situation. were ration and yet I had nowis supposed to be running an ope
no control over them. i
Personnel were coming and goi4 and 1 ha
control of the personnel working in the MDC. I sent a message to Bo Commanders and BDE commander soliciting their support.
a male and I could not run the mission if I had no control of the personnel and I did the best I could. We had a situation wherebitating 1 told their ISG that one of them bad to go and for him to decide. Henmplaint to his command.
and
arta.
and said that thc battalion was telling him I had no decisu to who left the
led me very upset
he hcard my story, he supponed mt. I spoke to the S-3 about the issue with control of personnel but him to hear My er nothing L;ITime
cue to add to this statement?
Q. Do
A. N of Staternemv://,w/i//////////////////////////////////
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NAVE READ OR HAVE HAD READ TOME THIS STATEMENT
1 THE CONTENTS Of THE ENTIRE STATEMENT MADE

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ME THE STATEMENT IS TRUE i HAVE INITIALED ALL CORRECTIONS AND HAVE Malkin IKE BOTTOM OF EACH PAGE

vsHICH BEL NS ON PAGE I AND ENDS CDOITAIMNS THE STATEMENT I NAVE MAIN THIS
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UCMJ, ARTICLE 136
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PACE 3. DA IDAM 11123. DEC WI

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