Court-Martial Record: Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick, II (Volume 7 of 8)

This Court Martial record (volume 7 of 8) discusses the court martial proceedings of Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick, II, who was charged for offenses he committed while assigned to the Abu Ghraib Detention Facility on or about November 08, 2003. SSG Frederick was arraigned and charged with a number of offenses, including maltreatment of subordinates, conspiracy, dereliction of duty, assault, and wrongful commission of an indecent act with detainees.
Included in the record is the continuation of the Article 32 Investigative Report from volume of 6 of the Court Martial record, motions and an interview of a Psychology Professor regarding the abuse at Abu Ghraib and the photos. When asked about the photos, the Professor stated that "the images are wrose than anything we have seen before, by their vividness, by their variety of poses...by the sexual nature."
Also included, is SSG Frederick's offer to plead guilty.

Doc_type: 
UCMJ
Doc_date: 
Thursday, May 20, 2004
Doc_rel_date: 
Tuesday, November 29, 2005
Doc_text: 

•POURT-MARTIAL RECORD'

.
NAME Re.DeRrcK LVAA) L. Ir SS
SSN
ACTIONS CODED: ASSIGNED'['
INITIAL PANEL at
ACCA EXAM. DIV.
FINAL
COMPANION(S):

RETURN THIS FILE TO:
OFFICE OF THE CLERK OF COURT
US ARMY JUDICIARY
901 NORTH STUART STREET, SUITE 1200
ARLINGTON, VA. 22203-1837

=
VOL -ELL OF VOL(S)
ARMY 2 0 0 4 1 1 2 9
JALS-CC FORM 24, 1 OCTOBER 2000
019617
.

DOD-042697

VOL VIX,of
ORIGINAL COPY

vEpmmorne

RECORD OF TRIAL2
(and accompanying papers)

OF
FREDERICK, Ivan L., II (NAME: Last, First Middle Initial) 1111111111111,(Social Security Number) Staff Sergeant (Rank)
HHC, 16th MP Bde (ABN)
III Corps US Army Victory Base, Iraq
(unit/Command Name) (Branch of Service) (Station or Ship)

BY

GENERAL COURT-MARTIAL
CONVENED BY COMMANDING GENERAL (Title of Convening Authority)

Headquarters, III Corps

(Unit/Command of Convening Authority)
TRIED AT

ON120-21 Oct 04 (Place or Places of Trial) (Date or Dates of Trial)

Baghdad and Victory Base, Iraq119 May, 21-22 Jun; 24 Aug;

COMPANION CASES: SPC AMBUHL, Megan M.

-`7
SGT DAVIS, Javal
SPC GRANER, Charles A., Jr
SPC HARMAN, Sabrina D.
SPC SIVITS, Jeremy C.,
SPC CRUZ, Arman J.,
PFC ENGLAND, Lynndie R. , 111111.111111

Appellate Exhibit IX through Appellate Exhibit,XXVI'I

CD
-c)
Insert "verbatim" or summarized" as appropriate. (This form will be used by the Army and Navy for verbatim rearfs9f6i sily.) 2 See inside back cover for instructions as to preparation and arrangement. DD FORM 490, OCT 84 Previous editions are obsolete. FRONT COVER
2 0 0 4 1 1 2 9

DOD-042698
50
1 SPECIAL AGENTCSameCindividualCknown as
2 with the.
wiresCattached to.
hisCfingersCand,
3 excuse me,Caround hisCneck on the MRE box.
4 (0-1-CAPTAINCNow isCthat the.
same photo as
5 the otherCone?
6 SPECIAL AGENT Mir.I believe so.CIt's
7 distorted.C(9tql
8 CAPTAIN".CW ich meansCSergeant Frederick
ll
9 is not in.
thehotograph?
10 SPECIAL AGENT No, he's.
not. I.
believe
11 it's the.
same
12 CAPTAIN gimp1Let me make sure I ...CI'm
13 handing you.
ProsecutionCExhibit 11,.
you can.
just
14 compareCthem.
15 Are theseCtheCsame photographs?
16 SPECIAL AGENT Amp1Yes sir.CDifferent
17 photographs.CSorry.Cinaudible)Cpicture in.
thisCone
18 is theCsame
19 CAPTAIN CDifferentCsnapshots?
20 SPECIAL AGENTAIIIIII,CYeah.
21 CAPTAIN /MN,CI'm sorry.CI wasn't clear on
22 that.Cco-o-

019619

DOD-042699

51

1 SPECIAL AGENTCI think you can see from

VIA-A

2 12, his: foot down lo er..

Different picture in the
3 same location.
4CCAPTAINCThank you..

Okay.CThat's all

(

5 for that one. Sorry. Move for Prosecution Exhibit
6

12 for identification as evidence as Prosecution
7 Exhibit 12. Prosecution Exhibit 13 handed to the

8 witness, Prosecution Exhibit 13 for identification,
9 do you recognize that?
C

10CSPECIAL AGENT

Yes sir.

NO-1

11CCAPTAINAIIIIII:.

kay. And what is that?

C17)Ca'L

12CSPECIAL A ENTCThat is detainees and they 13 were forced t masturbate, masturbate themselves 14C
CAPTAIN MEM Okay. Tell us the story that
15 you know from the investigation of that.
16CSPECIAL AGENT

I believe it was in Harman
17 or England's statement where they stated Sergeant

18 Frederick grabbed one of the detainees, put his own 19 hand on his penis and made a motion to masturbate and 20 the detainees continue doing this for a while. And 21 that right there is England posing in the picture. 22 From her statement, she said she didn't want to, but 23 she did it anyway.
019620

DOD-042700

52

1 CAPTAINIIIIII, Anything else in there that
2 shows how yo recognize that or who are they?

3CSPECIAL A ENTCIt looks like it's a lower

4.

(inaudible) doors, metal d ors behind it, again, on

5 the bottom le t side of ( naudible).

6CCAPTAINCDo ou know of any interrogation

7 technique that calls for, having masturbation?

8CSPECIAL AGENTCNo sir.

9CCAPTAINC. Or any other kinds of MP SOP?

10CSPECIAL.

4NTAIIIIIIP No sir. The MI's would
11 be, when they ave us the copies of, it's very
12 detailed and hat they can and can't do as far as,
13.

(inaudible) f od, monitor food intake, that's also
14 monitored byi he (inaudible).

15CCAPTAINCSir at this time, you mentioned
16 that this is classified..

Is this classified, and if
17.

so, (inaudible).

18CCAPTAIN101111. I think he said the details of
.

19C(91G1 -L
it are.

20CSPECIAL AGENTC(inaudible) classified and
21 they gave us copies of different pages that have, so
22 we could have (inaudible) SOP is as far as what
23 they're allowed and can and can't do.

019621

DOD-042701

53

1CCAPTAIN rallifiV (inaudible)
2CMAJOR 0111,111109ht's .

fine sir. You don't need
3 to go any further..

st'get the general idea. 4 That's all I'm aski 5 CAPTAINCProsecution moves for 6 Prosecution Exhibit 13 for identification into 7 evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 13.C
Prosecution
8 Exhibit 14 for identification..

I've handed

9 Prosecution Exhibit 14 for identification to the
10 witness, do you recognize that?
11CSPECIAL AGENTAIIIIIV Yes sir.
12CA d what is that?

CAPTAIN
13CSPECIAL AGENTCThat is one of the two of
14 the same detainees who were in the naked pyramid and
15 one being forced to have his head pressed into the
16C...

other individual's
17CAnd how do you recognize that?

CAPTAINC18CSPECIAL AG N T gling Same area with the metal 19 door behind it, (inaud ble) lower level where the 20 isolation cells are at
.

21CCAPTAIN 'm sorry.
22CSPECIAL AGENT 111111. That also corresponds with
23 some of the statements saying that they were forced

019622
DOD-042702
54
1 to stimulate performing oral sex, which looks like
2 they're doing it in one of the pictures along with
3 statements (inaudible).
4CCAPTAIN Okay. Move for Prosecution
5 Exhibit 14 for identification into evidence,
6 Prosecution Ex ibit 14..

Prosecution Exhibit 15 for
7 identification hand that to the witness, do you
8 recognize that
9CSPECIAL AGENT 1111.11: Yes sir.

10 CAPTAINC: lend what is that? 11 SPECIAL AGENTS I believe that's the same 12 two individuals as this one here.C
There's a better
13 view from the front, bag off his head with his head
14 right against, right near the other individual's
15.

penis.
16CCAPTAIN Do you recognize anybody else in

.

Miq

17 there, anybody else in that picture? 18CSPECIAL A ENTCI don't recognize anybody 19 else.CS0 1
That's the lo er evel again (inaudible) on
20 the left side.
21CCAPTAIN .

oes that appear to be a solider

22.

or

...

23CSPECIAL AGENTCA detainee sir.

019623

DOD-042703

55
1 CAPTAINCrill/• They're all detainees?
Z

2 SPECIALC.

NTCYes sir.

1.

3 CAPTAINCPVv

e for Prosecution Exhibit
4 15 for identification.

evidence Prosecution
5 Exhibit 15.Chibit 16 for

Prosecutio.
6 identification, hand th-t.

the witness, Sergeant
7 Bobeck, do you recognize.

at?
8CSPECIAL AGENTCYes sir.
9CAnd what is that?

CAPTAIN
10CSPECIAL 4CThis is Sergeant
11 Frederick's (inaudible) with a detainee in between,
12 he's sitting on the back of one without. And that
13 area right here is ... Do you have your sketch sir?
14 This is a h llway right outside here (inaudible) is
15 the very bot om of (inaudible).
16CCAPTAINCThe witness is indicating on
17 Tier 1 (inaudible) by the steps by the guard, where
18 it's identified as the guard area..

Does he appear to
19 be doing any military functions in that picture?
20CSPECIAL AGENTCNo sir.

11

21CCAPTAINCW at does he appear to be doing?
22CSPECIAL AGENTCJust posing for a picture,
23 sitting on a detainee's back.

019624

DOD-042704

56

1CCAPTAINCMove for Prosecution Exhibit 16
2 for identifk)T16n into evidence as Prosecution
3 Exhibit 16..

'rosecution Exhibit 17 for
4 identificatioCdo you

Special Agent.
5 recognize tha
6CYes sir.

SPECIAL A ENTIIIIII.

,C)W\

7CCAPTAINCAnd what is that?
8CSPECIAL AGENTCThis is when they
9 initially were brought up from Ganci after the riot.

10 They're still bound with custody cuffs..

They still
11CThis is ...

have all their clothes on..

12CCAPTAIN is Do you recognize the area where
6\ :1"

13.

that is?

14CSPECIAL 1 GENTCIt looks like the lower
(91("0

15 left side ag in, again (inaudible) by the isolation
16.

cells.
17CCAPTAINIIIIIII: D you remember any of the
18 interviews regarding 1 ying in the pile, dog pile
19 there?

Yes..
21 brought up (inaudible) took them one by one and
22CAnd that's when they started, they got

20CSPECIAL AGENTCInitially they were

(inaudible)..
stripped.

019625

DOD-042705

57
1CCAPTAIN M. Do you recall anything that took
(1(1-'1'

2 place before they were naked?
3CSPECIAL AG NTCBefore they were naked,

4 they were piles up an some of the guards took turns
5 jumping into t e pile for no apparent reason.
6CCAPTAINCnything else do you recall they

7 did to that pile?

8 SPECIAL AGENTCSergeant Graner, when they
9 were initially in this pile, he punched one of the 10 individuals so hard that it knocked him out and there 11 is a statement where Sergeant Frederick punched the 12 gentleman in the chest and he collapsed on the floor. 13 I don't know if it was in this timeframe or not.
Okay. Thank you..
15 Exhibit 17 for i entification move into evidence as
16 Prosecution ExhibiCExcuse me, sir ...

14CCAPTAIN Prosecution

17..
17C[END OF F RST SIDE OF TAPE ONE]

18CCAPTAIN 111111" (inaudible) Sir, I have no

19 further questions.
20CCAPTAIN Special Agent, (inaudible)
21 report (inaudible) packet, CID p.

t that I believe
22 the investigating officer and government has.
.

23CSPECIAL AGENT Yes sir.

019626

DOD-042706

58

1CCAPTAIN And I believe the majority of
2 this, if not4iof it, and correct me if I'm wrong
3 government, the majority of this is double-sided
4 photocopies, approximately 3-1/2 inches, 4 inches.
5 Have you seen this packet before?
6 SPECIAL AGENT ii11101, Yes. I've gone through

.

L4Y(0))

7 most of it.

8 CAPTAIN/NNW Ca you tell me how many pages of 9 this documeWil-s your roduct?
10CSPECIAL GENTCHow many pages of it?
11CCAPTAIN NNW Yes. I'm guessing it's 300, 400
12CHow many pages?

pages..

13CSPECIAL AGENT11111111: Well, I can't say how many
14 pages exactly sir. 0)1Q-
15CCAPTAIN?. U der 10?

( (4)-7-

NT.
17CUnder 10 pages.

16CSPECIALCUnder 10?

CAPTAIN.
.

18CSPECIAL PjGEN Well, it appears more than

co,r-
19 10 pages are ours.

CAPTAIN.
21 testimony that the only person that you interviewed
22 was one alleged co-conspirator, and then that person

23 did not make a statement?

20CWell you mentiahed in your

019627

DOD-042707

59

1CSPECIAL AGENTC.CThat's right.

Yes..
2CCAPTAINIIIMIF:.

that the extent of your actual

3 participati".

(14;L

in thisdocument?
4CSPECIAL AGENT No sir..

I interviewed a
5 lot of the victim detainees at Ganci who were
6 identified as victims, (inaudible) interviewed the
7 entire unit.
8CCAPTAIN UM And that was just you that did
9 that?

10CSPECIAL A ENT Myself and Agent

.
11.

He's on your; . i t: 12CCAPTAINCg t the following agents. 13Ce ...C
If you can just t411C(inaudible)
14CSPECIAL AGENT redeployed.
15.

(inaudible) 'redeployed.
16CCAPTAIN NM.Amy

, that's you.
17 OW SPECIAL .GENT MOMOMMI AIM, (ph),

(c)Ly t
18 redeployed.
19CCAPTAIN
20CSPECIAL AGENTCRedeployed.

lilts

21CCAPTAIN"

• 22.SPECIAL AGENTC'I don't know who that is. 23CCAPTAIN NOS -
019628

DOD-042708

60

1CSPECIAL AGENT 1.11111: here's no such agent.

2 CAPTAIN SEM (P
3 SPECI AGENT: 1 edeployed.
4 CAP TA
5 SPECI L AGENT . Redeployed.
6 CAPTAI
7 SPECIAL AGENT 'MN VP1)He's not an agent.
8 CAPTAIN (inaudible)C(ph)

9.

(inaudible).

10CSPECIAL AGENTCNeither one of those
11 agents.
12 CAPTAIN So, are you the only agent on
13 that report that is st 11 here ...
14CSPECIAL AGENT Yes sir.
15CCAPTAIN Are they still within the United
16 States Army, d you know?
17CSPECIAL AG NT11111111 Oh yes.
18CCAPTAIN'S.. And'io you know where they were
19 redeployed to?
20 SPECIAL AGENT 1111111111. 111111,(p.

went back to
21Cthe 12th, Fort Benninig. (ph).

back at Fort 22 Bragg. is at Fort Bragg.Cwent to Fort 23 Levert (ph).
019629
DOD-042709
61

1CCAPTAIN CAre 'they outside the theater of
2 operations?
3CSPECIAL AGENT l Outside of Iraq? Yes sir.
(L'-)(A

4CCAPTAINCAte they in Afghanistan?
5CSPECIAL AGENT/MI No. They're all back in
6.

the U.S..

11(.)(-'
7CCAPTCOkay; So they would be available

8 via teleC
ne if we could call?
9CCAPT INCObjection..

He doesn't know ...
10 It's a leial definition of available (inaudible).

11 CAPTAINCYou can make a determination of 12 availability. The government has chosen not to have 13 them present or available. And I'm just establishing 14 facts for your dettrmination later, as I outlined in 15 an e-mail of whether not they're available or not
Just merely facts..
17 conclusions..

16 available.CI'm not asking for

So there were several agents working on
18 this and would you have a guess of what percent of
19 this document you worked on?

(-)-1

20CSPECIAL AGENTC30 percent maybe.

21CCAPTAINC30 percent?

019630

DOD-042710

62

1CSPECIAL AGENT 011111: I collected.

A lot of it
2 is stuff I collected as evidence, the books, the
3 medical logs, the ,majority of the files.
4CCAPTAINCSo if the investigating officer
5 were to go th ough his document, he would find your
6 name or your (inaudible) directly related to 30
7 percent of these documents?
8CSPECIAL GENTI11111,: Rough guess. I can't be
9 for certain s br-7-

.

10CCAPTAIN Were you an eyewitness to any of
11 these photos?
12CSPECIAL AGENTIIIIIMIP At the scene they were
(.174CV

13 taken?
14.

CAPTAIN.
15CSPECIA AGENT 111111L No sir.

;
16CWere you present at Abu Ghraib

CAPTAIC17 Prison durin0Re riot that you described? 18CSPECIAL A ENT amp No. (inaudible).
(A)-1

19 And
20 photos?
21CSPECIAL AGENTCNo sir.

And you did not take any of these

0 1 9 6 3 1

DOD-042711

63

CAPTAIN 1

And you testified that you don't
2 know when these photos were taken, only when they
3 weresaved?

.

4 SPECIAL AGENTC .COn the CD itself, I don't
5 know a lot about computers, to be honest right now.
6 There are little folders, you can see the pictures

7 here..

It was labeled like 07/November A,
8 05/November..

I don't know if that's exact dates of
9 the riots. That's how the picture.

That's how the
10 folders were labeled and you click on the folders and
11 that's where the pictures were at.

12CCAPTAIN You mentioned that there was a
C!')

13 classified (in udible) that Military Intelligence
14 has?
15CSPECIAL AGENTCThey have certain

cior
16 guidelines th t _
17CCAPTAINCA d you reviewed that?
18CSPECIAL AGENTCSo much of it. We read
19 some of it, yes..

I didn't read all of it.
20CCAPTAIN You mentioned of the detainees
21 that some of them were CID detainees?
22CSPECIAL AGENT 111111111. Sometimes. The ones on
23 the

019632

DOD-042712

64

1 floor (inaudible) MI. Most are MI but sometimes

2 they're CID detainees on that floor.
.

3 CAPTAIN .

What do you mean when you say CID
-1.

4 detainee? (91Q
5CSPECIAL AGENTCThey're on CID hold. We
6 are holding t em for c imes against (inaudible)
7 coalition tr.

s, IADs, (inaudible) things like that.
8CCAPTAINCYou mentioned that when you talk
9 about SOPs, that you di 't think it was available,

10 not available at the ti e
(CM
11CSPECIAL AGENTCI don't think there was an
12 SOP..

I'm pretty sure, quote me if I'm wrong, but I
13 don't think there was an SOP written anywhere when
14 Sergeant Frederick and the other MP company were
15 there in the prisoil handling it.
16CBut subsequently there was not ...

CAPTAIN.

17CSPECIAL AGENT When things happened, then
18 they started aving things in writing, what you can
19 and can't do, how things were going to be run.

14?).1mis,

20CCAPTAAIMMOD: A d this is after the fact ...
.

21 SPECIALS AGENT Yes. 22CIn your investigation (inaudible)
CAPTAIN
23 CID investigation, and I'm only talking about your

019633

DOD-042713

65

1 knowledge of this case, do you know if a commander
2 was questioned about the extent of ...
3CSPECIAL AGENTIONINW: Everybody was questioned

(69tQl

4 including the battali.

commander about what was 5 happening at the tiers. 6CCAPTAIN MAW (i audible) 7CSPECIAL AGENT I don't know sir. 8 CAPTAINC: Did they relate to you that they 9 had a standard operating procedure or any guidelines
10 regarding (inaudible) Sergeant Frederick? 11 SPECIAL AGENTCNot that I can remember. 12C1;;'t tCo a lot of the higher folks. Mr.
1 i1
13Chandled all the briefings of the colonels and
14 the majors to find out what the SOPs were or if they
15 even had any at the time.
16CCAPTAIN.CAnd I'll tell you which one I'm

C)---e_

17 looking at, if you can just follow along..

Okay. 18 Prosecution Exhibit 3, this is, you had already 19 described that.C
Do you see Staff Sergeant Frederick
20 in this phot graph?
21CSPECIAL GENTCNo.
22CCAPTAINCDo you see any maltreatment of
23 detainees in this photograph?

019634
DOD-042714
66

1CSPECIAL AGENT Just the pile on the

2.

floor.
3CCAPTAINCJust the pile on the floor.
4 Prosecutio Exhibit 4, do you see Staff Sergeant
5 Frederick in this photograph?
6CSPECI L AGENT MIN
7CCAPTAICProsecu ion Exhibit 5, do you see
8 Staff Sergeant Frederick n this photograph?
9CSPECIAL AGENTCNo.

.

10 CAPTAIN 111111, Prosecution Exhibit 6, do you see
11 Staff Sergegl°Frederick in this photograph?
12CSPECIAL A ENTINE. No.
13CCAPTAINCPro ecution Exhibit 7, do you see
14 Staff Sergeant Frederic in this photograph?
15CSPECIAL AGENTCNo.
16CCAPTAINCNow there are two clearly
17 identifiable so diers in Prosecution Exhibit 8..

Is
18 either one of hem Staff Sergeant Frederick?
19CSPECIAL ACNo.
20CCAPTAINCPWcution Exhibit 9, is Staff
21 Sergeant Frederick pres nt in that photograph?
22CSPECIAL AGENTCNo sir.

019635

DOD-042715

67

()t(

1

mow Prosecution Exhibit 10, is Staff

2 Sergeant Frederick present in this photograph? (17)(L)--( 3CSPECIAL AGENT/WM: No sir. 4 CAPTAINCYou mentioned that you recognized 5 in Prosecut on Exhibit 11 Staff Sergeant Frederick? 6 SPECIAL AGENTCYes.
..

ON2L1
7CCAPTAIN NM And he' looking at a camera? 8 SPECIA AGENTgrommr(Y-c11
Yes.
9CCAPTAINCIs he to ching the detainee at
10.

all?
.

11 SPECIAL AGENT No.
12 CAPTAIN ?Staff Sergeant Frederick
13 present in Prosecution Exhibit 12?
14 SPECIAL! AGENT Not in this picture.
15CCAPTAIN!IIIII .

Prose ution Exhibit 13, you
16 cO'n your testimony that's not StaffU

mentione.
17 Sergeant Frederick, is it?

0'1\
1-7
18 SPECIALCo sir.
GENTC19 CAPTAINCAnd w . o did you say that was? 20CSPECIA AGENTCThat was England. 21CCAPTAINCOkay. And in your testimony that 22 you gave the government on direct, you mentioned that 23 England did not want to be in this pose?
019636

DOD-042716

68

1 SPECIAL AGENT That's what she said in
2 her statement.

3 CAPTAIN :But she appears to be enjoying
4 this photo• aph?
5 SPECIAL AGENT :.

She appears to be. 6 CAPTAeriliall And St ff Sergeant Frederick is 7 not in thi photograph? 8 SPECIAL AGENT IIIImr. No, he is not. 9CCAPTAICYet, sh said she didn't want to
10 be in this?
11 SPECIAL AGENT She didn't want to be but 12C
she

13 CAPTAIN Prosecution Exhibit 14, is Staff
14 Sergeant F ederick in this photograph?
15 -SPECIA AGENT No sir.

12)(0-11 16 CAP"AI 111111111 Prosecution Exhibit 15, is Staff 17 Sergeant F ederick in this photograph? 18 SPECIALAGENT -,6)(IL)0 si r.
You mentioned in Prosecution
20 Exhibit 16 that Staff Serg a t Frederick is in that
21 photograph..

Right? 22CSPECIAL AGENT NM Yes sir.
010637

DOD-042717

69

1CCAPTAINCAnd there appears to be a

2 detainee th t he's sitting on?
.

3CSPECIAL AGENT Yes sir.

C04Q-14

4 CAPTAICDo yo know anything about the

5 context as o why he is siting on him?
AGENT minikqP'\

..
7.

6CSPECIA No, I do not.

CAPTAIN I see a couple soldiers' trousers
8 in Prosecution Exhibit 17 but can you identify Staff
9 Sergeant Frederick being in this photograph?

.

10CSPECIAL AGENT No.

11 CAPTAINCI'll s ow you again Prosecution 12 Exhibit 12 it's got detaine- apparently standing on
13.

the ...
\

14CSPECIAL AGENT. MRE box. 15 WP-L
CAP N IMO On the IRE box. Does that
16 picture a pear distorted t all?
17CSPECI L AGENTCYes sir..

It was stretched
18.

out.

19CCAPTAIN You had mentioned and you
20 testified about Prosecution Exhibit 14 that you
21 recognized this guy from the pyramid? How did you do

22 that?

019638

DOD-042718

C70
(144-7,,
1CSPECIAL AGENTCWell, I can't be for
2 certain it's the same guy from the pyramid, but the
3 only guys that were on the floor during this
4 timeframe was the detainees.
( t
5CCAPTAINCOkay. And then, when you made
6 that conclusion tht this is the guy from the
7 pyramid, you stated earlier that you didn't know when
8 the photographs were taken. How do you know that
9 this photograph was taken either before or after the
10 pyramid?
.

11 SPECIAL AGENT1111111, I can't be for certain if
12 it was before or after.
13CCAPTAINCProsecution Exhibit 16, it's
14 interesting you flatted that this was not a military
15 function,.

itting on the detainee like this.

16 SPECIAL AGENT 11111,1 Yes.
cl-

2VQ)Ammino

17 CAPT INImmomm: Is that 'orrect?
18 SPECIA AGENT 0111111:IL)-

've never seen it before.
19CCAPTAINCYou've n ver seen it before..

Do
20 you know the context of th s photograph at all?
21CSPECIAL AGENTCI don't have any idea

No..
22 why he's wrapped up. There's a blanket or something

019639

DOD-042719

71
1 between the two (inaudible).C

No, I don't know
2C

(inaudible).
3CCAPTAIN 1

UMW Okay.' Prosecution Exhibit 17,
4 when you testified about Prosecution Exhibit 17, this
5 is the pictuie of the pile, and you mentioned that
6 this is related to the guards jumping in the pile.C

I
7 see two soldiers' trousers (inaudible), one right
8 here and one right here, which of those guys are
9 running into the pile and jumping?

10CSPECIAL AGENTCNot in this picture sir.

it(A
11 CAPTAINIMIIMIP All ri ht. Is there a picture
12 that shows tatImping?
13CSPECIAL AGENT 1111111: Some of the statements
14 from the other individuals explained what was
15 happening during this timeframe when they were still
16 dressed.
17CCAPTAINCBut the picture in and of itself
18C

does not show ... 19 SPECIAL AGENT INAINIVC o. There's nobody 20 jumping in the icture, int the pile.
qe-1,
C
22 running, it doesn't appea to be.
23CSPECIAL AGENTCDon't appear to be.

211CAPTAIN And nei her of these folks are
019640
DOD-042720
72
1CCAPTAIN C

In the beginning of
2 the report, Mted that there were several detainees
3 listed as a leged victims in this case.C

Do you
4 recall that? Would you like to see it?
5CSPECIAL GENT CPlease.

No, I don't.C

Lq[0-A

6CCAPTAIN Okay.C

I think it's in the
7 beginning of the ... Befor you look at them, were you
8 responsible for makingC

inaudible) a report?
9CSPECIAL AGENTCThe status report?

10 CAPT NIS° -1.46.• That's right.
11 SPE L AGENTCAmur:CNo sir.
12 CAPT C){(0)(,( na lible).
13 CAP TA So y u were one of the actual

14 officers that was assig the case?C

(inaudible) 15CSPECIAL AGENT MIN (inaudible) yes. 16 CAPT CSir, you can look at it. 17CSPECIA What was your question? 18CCAPTAIN And what I was looking at sir, is 19 towards the front there's a giant list and I included 20 those people on my request, if you could just tell me 21 where these folks are these detainees? 22CSPECIAL AGENT When you look at them, if 23 they say detainee, they are still in Abu Ghraib
019641

DOD-042721

73
1 somewhere. Okay.C

If they say former detainee, then
2 they have been released and the whereabouts are
3 probably very hard to determine.

C

4 CAPTAINAIIIII, Okay. And if they are a detainee
5 they're aC

b . How far away is Abu from here?

6CSPECT L AGENTCGive or take 20 minutes.
11111r)(0(

7CCAPTACAr th e soldiers there?
8CSPECIA AGENT
9 CAPTAINCAre yo stationed there?
C

10CSPECIAL AGENT Yes.

11 CAPTAINS/1W You came from Abu? You're not 12 stationed here at Victory? 13CSPECIAL AGENT IIII0C
I'm at Abu.
14CCAPTAINCIs th re a telephone line at Abu?
15CSPECIAL A NTCes sir.

C

16CCAPTAIW (inaudible) or both?
17CSPECIAL AGENTC(inaudible) mostly.
18CCAPTAINCI saw a lot of nude

Okay.C
19 detainees and you mentioned that the (inaudible)
20 photographs, the things being depicted, did not
21 follow an SOP?C

Fa\
22CSPECIAL AGENT Imo That's safe to say.

019642

DOD-042722

74

CAPTAIN 111111 So, are you telling the
2 investigating officer and us that nudity was not a
3 part of being a detai ee at Abu Ghraib?

Q-1

4CSPECIAL AGENTCThe statements I reviewed
5 or that I saw, was that prisoners brought to
6C(inaudible)

(inaudible) they stripped them naked.C
7 SOP. No one really knew for certain (inaudible)
8 everyone did prior to that.C

So you just went along
9 with the regular SOP.C

(inaudible) statements were
10 verbal. There was never really a written, "you will
11 not strip detainee, you will not do this, you will
12 not do this." It was more of a verbal type thing
13 just to try to do what's right.C

I don't know exactly
14 what they were told.
15CCAPTAIN C

(inaudible)
(HU' iiiiii41

16CSPECIALC.C

NTC• Right.
17C,You mentioned that there was a

CAPTAIN
18 comprehensive, ithere was a very comprehensive
19 investigation done where commanders and various
20 people were interviewed. Could you glean from them
21 what exactly Staff Sergeant Frederick was supposed to
22 do with these detainebs.

010643

DOD-042723

75

1CSPECIAL AGENTCI didn't talk to them so I
2 don't know what they said exactly. Basically what I
3 know is that Staff Sergeant Frederick was the NCOIC
4 who managed the whole, all the tiers, but I don't
5 believe, I don't know if there was ever a written SOP
6 during that timeframe.C

I don't think there was.
7CYou did not find one?

CAPTAINC
8CSPECIAL AGENT C

At that time, no.
C

9 CAPTAINCIn the comprehensive

10 investigation the CID did..
cYCH
11CSPECIAL AGENT (inaudible)

12CCAPTAINCOkay. Good. Were you able to
13 procure any peration orders involving (inaudible)
14 that Staff Sergeant Frederick's unit did in October
15C

of 2003?

16CSPECIAL GENT'CI don't remember reviewing
17 it.CI don t know.

It might bg.C

18C

CAPTAIN mom Did ou review any significant
19 activity reports (inaudib e) that these pictures and
20 these allegations for wh ch Staff Sergeant Frederick
21C

were charged ...
22CSPECIAL AGENT C

activity
23 reports?

019644

DOD-042724

76

1 CAPTAIN UM (inaudible) anything like that?
2 Did you revieC

hose?

3 CSPECIAL AGENT (inaudible)
C

4 CAPTAIN NM: A y /4arning orders put out?
C

5

SPECIAL AGENT MEW I don't know. I have no
6C

idea.
C

7 CAPTAINCWell, I'm just asking, I just

8 want to know your knowledge and extent of the
9 investigation at this time. To my understanding,

10 there was a parallel investigation done under 15-6

11 and I just want to know where your investigations,
12 where the scope of your investigation stopped?

.....

13CSPECIAL AGENT I can't testify to the

14 SOP. I didn't reviewQhMersonally. I don't know

15 if anyone else 'n the investigation did or not.
16CCAPTAINCAny training guidelines put out

17 by maybe the S3 of theC

it who Staff Sergeant
18 Frederick was a part o

19CSPECIAL AGENT Again, I don't know. What
20 I got the most of, is they had Sergeant Frederick and
21 Sergeant Graner, they were not initially prison
22 guards. The MP unit was not trained for the prison
23 activity. They were more road MPs at the time.

019645

DOD-042725

77

C

1CCAPTAIN Okay.
2CSPECIAL GENTCThey put them in charge
3 from what I understand because they were civilian
4 prison guards (inaudible) was supposed to run.
5 Again, I don't know thisC

I can't testify exactly.
6 They were h ping that th y would be able to do the
7 prison jobs but they were 't really, not trained as
8 correction oi'ficer.C

(inaudible)
C

GENT iffiffir

9CCAPTAIN Prior to you being a CID agent,
10 were you an MP?
V4,01

11CSPECIAL No.
C

12CCAPTAIN Do you have any knowledge of the
13 MP (inaudible)?
C

14CSPECIAL AGENT A little bit.
C

15CCAPTAIN You had mentioned that they are
16 not trained.C

coxrectional officers.

17CSPECIAL A ENTC(inaudible) is now a

18 correction of icer (inaudible) . L5 0--19CSo the soldiers that were in the
CAPTAINC
20 prison were not the same so diers that would be in
21 Fort Leavenworth, for insta ce? Someone training to

be a correctional officer?

alikir 0-
23CSPECIAL AGENT . I don't believe so.C
No.

019646

DOD-042726

78

1CCAPTAINCWould the duties for being the
2 correctional officer and training program, is that
3 readily ava lable from someone?
4CSPECIAL AGENTCI don't know.C

I don't

5 know anyt,hi g about that
C
6CCAPTAIN . Have y.0 ever been through

7C

(inaudible operations?
8 SPECIA AGENT 1111111°egative.
9 CAPTAINC(inaudible)

Did yC10 investigation, review the Army regulation on detainee 11 operations? 12CSPECIAL AGENTCNegative. 13CCAPTAINCTo your knowledge, did any of the 14 soldiers (in udible) command review the regulation on 15 detainee op rations? 16CSPECIAL AGENTAIIIIII, I don't know.
(;)C)

(

17 CAPT N Did 7.c) review any of the judge 18 advocate opinions, because you mentioned several 19 times on these documents,C
se of the term
20 "detainees." How did the CID make the conclusion
21 that these were detainee
22CSPECIAL AGENT (inaudible) answer that.
23 If they were at Abu fthey were called detainees, EPWs

019647

DOD-042727

79

1 or security detainees.C

I don't know how to

2 differentiate all three of them.
C

3 CAPTAIN 11111V So you're telling me that these
4 people could be criminals or EPWs?
5CCAPTAIN 111111/ Sir, again this is (inaudible)
6 Detainees, EPWs, POWs, is a very legal definition,
7 legal grounds. I don't think Special Agent Alimus
8 qualified to discu.ss the legal differences between
9 POWs and EPWs.Calready stated that they were

10 detainees, that's what we call them.

11 CAPTAIN Alm" Sir, I would just note that the 12 CID report, if you'd please read it, and I'm sure you 13 did, (inaudible) as victims and the status in this 14 particular case is very important. The forms and the 15 charges, they specifically noted that this was a case 16 about maltreatment of detainees. That is a fact, a
17 series of facts of which would hopefully through my
18 questioning we can establish that the CID
19 investigation was not the proper, was not the venue

20 for establishing those fact.C

Indeed we must look at
21 possible 15-6 investigation which may have, that
22C

(inaudible) parallel administrative investigation,
which would have gone into more of the line of

019643

DOD-042728

80

1 questions.C

I'm just trying to figure out how much is
2 this testimony really worth.

3CCAPTAINCAgain sir, from the technicality
4 of the cha ge, how it's written detainees, I don't

5 think Age tCis (inaudible) and specific
6 legalitie of thoseC

arges (inaudible).

U2)1.0'
7CCAPTAINCIf I can just clarify one

8 question. Who did you r ly on or who did the CID
9 rely
10 upon to ake the determina tion when they put the word
11 detainee in this ckocument? Who did they ask?
12 SPEC AL AGENT 1/11111k1C)-1They either asked
13 don't kn w sir.CThey usua lyCThe (inaudible)

14 detainee .ecause there's n. other way to describe it.
15CCAPTAI 1111111 Well, i noticed that they're not
16 Iraqi civilians.C

They're of listed as local
17 nationals or anything els•They're specifically
18 called detainees. Who w uld have asked that question
19 in order to put that dowC

I agree with the trial
20 counsel here that it's a legal determination, but who
21 made that legal deter ination?

C

22CSPECIAL AGENT (inaudible) is always
23 there when they process.C

I don't know if they make

019649

DOD-042729

81

1 the determination if they're detainees or how ... I
2 don't know.
3CCAPTAINCOkay.C

1CThank you very much.C

Sir,
4 at this time, I would object to every picture in
5 which the accused, Staff Sergeant Frederick, is not
6 clearly pictured in and I would also object to those
7 descriptions of events depicted in this picture, like
8 running into the pile of detainees, which clearly,

9 given the scope of his knowledge, the fact that he
10 was not an eyewitness, the fact that the (inaudible),
11 we cannot make the conclusionC

(inaudible) that we

12 are actually seeing what was actually being completed
C

13 by Special Agent All right sir.C

Thank you.
14CCAPTAINCSpec al AgentCabout how
15 long did y u work on this c se?

16CSPECIA AGENTCBeginning of January sir

17 or about. bout three w=eks otal, three months.
18 Three months total.
19C

CAPTAIN Three mCWas the majority
20 of your time spent working onC

is case?
Q-1

21CSPECIAL AGENTRaffislaV

Most of January it was,


22C

yes sir.

019650

DOD-042730

82

1
CAPTAIN UMW And then what happened in
2 February and March.C

1;wr\

3CSPECIAL AGENTC: When I got done with the
4 case (inaudible) at the time, I went back to
5 (inaudible) for a week or two then came back up and
6 assumed the duties of (inaudible) and most of the
7 case was at that point was handled by Mr. graari

8C

(inaudible) and he was just basically wra ping things
9 up. There was not a lot left of invest gating work
10 left to be done on that case.

11CCAPTAINC(inaudible)
12CSPECI L AGENTC( (-Yjdible)

CAC

13Ccil(P NMI." You rev ewed statements, not7j

14 every document, almost every document (inaudible).
15 You can't recall every sin e word in every document,
16 because th re's:a lot of %ocuments.C

Right?
17CSPECIAL AGENTC

That's correct sir.
C

18CCAPTAIN (inaudible) SOPs and MP.C

Okay.

19 Let's talk about ... You said you were never an MP and
20 you don't great knowledge of MPs but a little bit
21 working as a CID agent.C

Let's just talk common
22 sense.C

Does the MP, SOP call out for detainees to be
23 masturbating, asked to perform masturbating?

019651

DOD-042731

83

1 SPECIAL AGENTCNo sir. Common sense
2 would say no.
3 CAPTAIN"... Doe any MP or any Army policy
4 or regulation llow soldie s, whether they're MPs,
5 correction officers, any s rt of a jump and assault
6 other individ als in a pile.

4
7 SPECI LCENTCo sir. 8 CAPTAINCAre there any MP or Army 9 regulations that would all w for putting people in 10 odd positions and taking hotographs for pleasure? 11 SPECIAL AGENTCNo sir. 12 CAPTAIN First of
Let's talk aboutC
13 all, let me sk you, are you aware of a picture,
14 snapshot or a photograph?
15 SPECIA AGENTC.C

Yes sir.
1-14°-1L

16 CAPTA1 Mil. What d es it portray?
17 SPECIA AGENT . C

's still photograph of
18 what's occu ring at the time
19 CAPTAINCIf som one is not in that
20 picture, does that meanC

're not in the area?
C

21CSPECIAL AGENT It meansC

No sir.CThey
22 could possibly be there.C

Sure.

019652

DOD-042732

84

1CCAPTAINCSo the events happening and
C

2 they're not the picture, it doesn't mean they're
3 not there?

4 SPECIAL GENT No.
5CCAPTAII Awli Ju t at that specific time.
6 Right?

C

7 SPECIAL AGENT That's correct.
That's
C

8 CAPTAIN And Prosecution Exhibit 16 is
9 the photograph of the accused on top ... Is there any 10 SOP or common sense Army regulation or anything that 11 allows for posing for a picture on top of somebody 12 like that? 13CSPECIAL AGENTCNo sir.
C

14CCAPTAIN Does it appear that the accused
15 was in any anger there?
16CSPECIA AGENT No sir.

0!Q-1/

17 WNW
CA TAI I thi k I've already asked you,
18 there appe rs to be no military purpose other than
19 posing for a picture?
20CSPECIAL AGENTCThat's correct sir.
21CCAPTAINCt; Okay. And Prosecution Exhibit
22 11, that is the photograph with a guy with the wires

019653

DOD-042733

85

1 and Sergeant Frederick is in that picture. Okay.
2 He's in that picture?C

cvk
3CSPECIAL AGENTCYes, he is.
4CCAPTAINCNow o Prosecution Exhibit 12,
5 it appears the same guy, same event. Correct?
6CSPECIAL AGENTCIt appears to be sir.
7 CAPTA(91i61111, He's not in that picture?
8CSPECIA AGENTC• On this picture, no.
9CCAPTA NCDoes hat mean he's not there?

SPECI L AGENT immid1/49(0*--1
10C o.

11CCAPTAINCDoesC

at mean he doesn't know

12 about it?
13CSPECIAL AGENTCOf course not.
14CCAPTAINCDoes that mean he didn't take
15 that picture?C

cvb
16CMAJORCPoint is well taken sir.

.C
17CCAPTAINCI mean, I think this goes
18 directly to his objection.C

He objects to any picture
19 that Frederick, that the accused was not in because ...
20 Just because he's not in it, doesn't mean that he
21 wasn't taking tie photograph, he wasn't involved in
22 the situation, he's in the area at that time.
23 Because we have a picture of the events, we know the

019654
DOD-042734
events took place, and that's direct evidence towards
2 what happened. Now whether or not the accused is
3 actually in that picture I think, and this is just my

4 statement to that objection, this is direct evidence
5 that the events took place and there's other evidence
6 that you'll see sir that place him in the area of
7 these pictures. Along with those pictures sir,
8 there's a lot of statements that correspond with who

9 was in the pictures, who was taking the pictures ...
10CCAPTAINC,(inaudible) defense wants to
11 make, (inaudible) testimony by people that
12C

(inaudible) society just one person instead of having
13 live testimony or other evidence. These are all
14 alternatives t,o evidence which you must rely, rule
15 on, to determine whether not these witnesses that did
16 take these statements were witnesses that made
17 statements, the people that were in fact eyewitnesses
18 to the events are available or not available to
19 testify and you have to weigh that (inaudible). And
20C

that's all (inaudible).
21CCAPTAINCAre you aware of any the rules
22 about taking photographs at the Hard Site or

23.

(inaudible) ?

019655

DOD-042735

87 LC)( 1 SPECIAL AGENTCWhen I first came up to 2 Abu, (inaudible) that is very prohibited and against 3 the rules of the Geneva Convention, to be taking 4 pictures of detainees.
5CCAPTAIN I have no further questions sir.
6CCAPTAI Sir, just one follow up.C

You
7 mentioned Geneva Convention.C

It's interesting
8 that you s w that the photographs were in violation
9 of the Genev Convention. You said earlier that you

10 were statio d at Abu Ghraib Prison?
11CSPECIAL) INTCYes.

12CCAPTAINCCurre tly ... Have you had a
13 chance to walk through the areas where the detainees
14 are
15 located?
16CSPECIAL AGENT 0 yes sir.

)t°1
17CIs ther any posting of the

CAPTAINC
18 Geneva Conv ntion in Arabi in any of the hallways?
19CSPECIA AGENTCNot that I know of.

20C

CAPT ?? mow Does it surprise you that that's
21 also a (in u6ible) Geneva Convention.
22CCAPTAINCAre you aware that they have
23 copies of the Geneva Convention in Arabic over there?

019656

DOD-042736

88

1CSPECIAL AGENT War I am not aware of that.
2CCAPTAINCIf I told you they did, would
3 that surprise you?

4 SPECIAL .F1ENTCNo.1111;116\--1
5 CAPTAINCOkay. No further questions.11111111.'
6 CAPTAINCI just have a question or two.

7 You were asked several times about an SOP and not 8 having one at the time but yet the CID provided a 9 packet, there is an SOP at Abu Ghraib Prison.C
It's

10 dated the 29 th of October.
11 SPECIAL AGENTCYes, this is (inaudible)
12 interrogation and debrie ing (inaudible) for the tier
13 1 (inaudible) Abu Ghraib ells.C

They really didn't
14 have an SOP on how to run he jail cells apparently.
15C

(inaudible) rule and regulations for interrogation
16 and debrief
17CCAPTAIN (inaudible)
011111.C4Q-1

18CSPECIAL AGENTCYes sir. Military police 19 (inaudible)C
OP for how to do things?
20CCAPTAIN Just at Camp Vigilant operations.
21CSPECIAL AGENT Vigilant is the outside

22 tent camp that MI ...

019657

DOD-042737

89

1CCAPTAIN o the Hard site is not included
2 inside Camp V'gflant?
3CSPECIAL A ENT No sir.CThree different
4 camps.
5CCAPTAIN (inau ible) strip search

C
6C

(inaudible) notiapplicab
7CSPECIAL AGENT I don't believe so, no.
8 You'd have to double check with the people at the
9 prison.C

I don't believe that one is the same one
10 from the Hard Site and Vigilant.
11CCAPTAINC: Nothing further sir based on
12 your question
13CMAJO Is that all the evidence you're
14 going to provide? Do not discuss this case with
15 anyone except the counsel until the trial is over.
16 Should a yone else attempt to discuss this case or
17 your tes imony with you, refuse to do so and report
18 the atte pt to me immediately. Do you understand
19 that?
20C

SPECIA AGENT 1111111111111, Yes sir. 21 MAJORCnice day. You are
: HaveC
22 excused.
23CSPECIAL AGENTCThank you sir.

019658
DOD-042738
90

1CMAJOR And obviously you will remain

2 local in case we need _QQ recall you.

ENTC

3CSPECIALC• Yes sir.

4CCAPTAINAIWAIIF Sir at this time, due to the
5 unavailability .of Sivits, Harman, England and Davis,
6 who all gave sworn statements to the CID during
7 interviews, these statements ... Did you get the e-
8 mail? Sir, I believe we got an e-mail copy from each
9 of those, saying that they (inaudible) unavailable.

10 So I introduce as Prosecution Exhibit 19, the

11 statement of Specialist Sivits; Prosecution Exhibit
12 20 as statement from Davis, Sergeant Davis;
13 Prosecution Exhibit 21, statement from Specialist

14 Harman; and Prosecution Exhibit 22 as statement from
15 Private First Class England.

16CCAPTAINAIIIII, Sir, the government asked that
OW7—

17 you admit toy( based on the unavailability but the
18 defense wishes that you make that declaration based
19 on the facts i, evidence on whether or not these
20 witnesses are indeed unavailable.

21CCAPTAINCI believe they're all pretty

much represented by counsel.C
23 evident.

22CI think that's pretty

019659
DOD-042739
91

1CA ORCAm I missing something here?
CAPTAIN C

Well, if that's your
determination sir, I just wanted it for the record,
if that's your decision based on information that the

5 government told you today ...
6CMAJOR MEW (inaudible)
7CCAPTAIN C

If I could also get (inaudible)
8 you shouldn't include that as part of the record
9C

(inaudible).
C

10 MAJOR (inaudible)
11 CAPTAIN Sir, if we could ask for a brief
1

12 recess, maybe five to ten minutes?

MAJOR Okay.C

So, it's 11:15.
14 [END OF SECOND SIDE OF TAPE ONE]

C

15CCAPTAIN We're back on the record.C

It's
16 11:53, 02 April.C

All parties are once again present.
17 Before the government closes or rests Your Honor or
18 excuse me, sir, there's a few things, a couple items.
19 I have here three sworn statements from detainees
20 that were given.C

Now, the question is going to be,
21 whether or not they're unavailable or not.C

I don't
22 know sir if you've made a decision yet or not in that
23 aspect.C

I can help this way.C

I can tell you sir

019660

DOD-042740
92

1 that there'is no possible way to bring the detainees
2 over here. That will not happen. The MPs will not
3 bring these guys from Abu Ghraib.C...

It's just
4 They're being held for security reasons and they're
5 not going to bring them on Victory Base to testify
6 here. Two, we believe these three guys are
7C

(inaudible) at this point, however, the list we got
8 could be subject to change. They may have been
9 released but I believe these three are not. However,

10 I would suggest they are still unavailable because
11 it's too much of a burden and cost for the government
12 to bring in security detainees to be a witness in a
13 case where we already have sworn statements from
14 them.C

I don't think they'd have anything more than
15 what their sworn statement could be.C

However, sir,
16 that's going to be your decision to make (inaudible).
17 If you've already made that decision, that we're not
18 going to go out (inaudible) and do that, then I will
19C

(inaudible) and I want to submit these sworn
20 statements with them being unavailable and put these
21 in.C

I think maybe the best way to do it, is I put
22 these in as exhibits, we end up going out there and
23 doing that, then I can hold them back and we'll just

019661

DOD-042741

93

1 take their testimony.C

So, (inaudible) It's tough for
1W1
2 me to pronounce these names,CI won't even

3 try sir.C

They'll be Prosecution Exhibits 22, 23 and
4 24, and they are of the English and the Arabic on all

5 three these statements. Now, we do have here Mr.
t
6 and I thought he was going to testify.

7 My understanding was he was going to testify. He has
8 given a statement already by the government, or
9 excuse me, to the CID, that we now want to introduce.

10 My understanding is now he's going to come in here 11 and invoke his self- incrimination rights as well. 12 So if he does that, he will be unavailable and I can 13 ...C
Do you have a copy of ... (inaudible) changes his
14 mind when the defense calls him, we can pull that

00
15 too. These are the statements of on 14
16 January and 18 January. These will be Prosecution
17 Exhibit 25. Okay.C

This is a highlighted copy, so at
18 a later time we'll make a copy of it. With that sir,
19 the government rests.
20COkay. We're going to take a

MAJORC
eiG C\

21 five-minute re k A

s .
22C

CAPTAINCBack on the record.C

It is 12:05
23 and once again all parties are present. The defense

019662
DOD-042742
--____

,---C

----,

94

,,----C
1/informed me that C

wishes to invoke his rights
against self-incrimination.C

So we don't need

3
necessarily to call him just to say that.
C

4
MAJOR I'll take it as face value.
5C

(inaudible) 6 CAPTAIN (inaudible)
1

MAJOR .

7CSure. Raise your right hand.

8 Do you swear and affirm that the testimony you're 9 about to give in the case now in hearing will be the A.)
10 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so 11 help you God?
SGT.CYes sir.

\4.__)C

13CMAJORCPlease have a seat and state

14 your full name.

15 SERGEANT MAJOR
16
17 MAJOR CYour rank?
18 SERGEANT MAJOR CSergeant Major.
19 MAJORC And your current duty

20 assignment?

SERGEANT MAJORMIIIII I'm with the 418 th MP
22 Detachment.Cthe senior NCO (inaudible).

019663

DOD-042743

95

1CMAJOR ,Captain -has some questions
for you Sergeant.
CAPTAIN - As I mentioned before outside, in

4

the CID report itillists you as being part of the 81 st
5 EPW.C

Could you just explain.

6CSERGEANT mAJORAIIIII, We're part of the 81st

7 Regional Support Command which is a higher command

8 for a reserve unit and my (inudible) unit is the

9 418th EPW CI Team, or Enemy Prisoner of War Detachment
AJ
7, 10 Team.
C
CAPTAINAIIIII, And are you currently at Abu

Q''' 11C
12 Ghraib Prison?

(\13 M. Sir, we're a i2-man

SERGEANT MAJORC
14 detachment. We have half our team down at Abu Ghraib
15 and half our team up here at Camp Victory. pio'I try to
16 spend a few days out of the week out with our team
17 down at Abu Ghraib.

CAPTAIN OM And how long have you had a team,
19C

ourself been involved with Abu Ghraib?
20CSERGEANT MAJOR Basically since ... Well,

C
21 we got in the countrC

(inaudible) Brigade the 1 st of
22 February.Cy much since probably the 3 rd or
23 4 th of February we've had folks down at Abu Ghraib.

019664
DOD-042744
1CCAPTAIN NAM In the CID report, it mentioned
2 thC

you had found problems with the prison and how
3C

t was being run?
SERGEANT MAJOR NM Well, we went through some
assessments. You say the CID report?
6CCAPTAIN MN Yes..
C

7 SERGEANT MAJOR Okay. First of all, I've

C
8 never talked to any of them from CID.C

So if you're
9 referring to an actual CID report, I didn't talk to

qjC

10 anybody with the CID.
You are mentioned in the

--9

\_)

documents.CWell, let me ask ...
13CCAPTAIN 111111 C

12CI'm just ...C

I would just object. Unless

(inaudible) aware of what he's talking about and his
name was mentioned or whatever ... I'm not sure I'm
16CThere's a lot of documents.

14C

ware either.C
17CCAPTAIN 11111 C

Have you had a chance to assess
18 the si•uation at the prison?
19CSERGE= T MAJOR 'I walked through the camps

C
20 itself. There's •asically three individual camps to
21 undergo, Camp Ganci, Camp Vigilant and the Hard Site.
22 I've been through all three of the camps and I guess

if I had to explain what role of our team is since

019665
DOD-042745
97
1 we're an EPW CI team. Our role of our team is we go
2 in the camp and ensure that the conditions are
3 according to the Geneva Convention, i.e., we make
4 sure the detainees/prisoners, EPWs are being treated
5 according to the Geneva Convention. We make sure
6 they're receiving proper medical care. We make sure
7 that the camp is environmentally friendly, taken care
8 of according to environmental conditions. That's
9 basically the goal of the team. And then the final
10 goal for our team is we arrange for repatriation of
11 detainees or prisoners back to their homeland.
12 That's kind of how the role of our team works.
13CCAPTAIN mow And who is your predecessor? Who
14 performed that function be ore you arrived in
15 February?
16CSERGEANT MAJOR I'm not sure.C

CI can't say

17
18CCAPTAIN IMO So there as no relief in place
19 of another unit?

20CSERGEANT MAJOR e came up under, it was
21 called (inaudible) BLD team, but there was only two
22 or three individuals. They didn't have their whole

019666

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98

1 team here and my understanding is they didn't even
2 have a presence down at Abu Ghraib.
3.What kind of training do members

,--G-TH"Flmr­
1-5 mop.

of your unit have in order to perform this function?
5.SERGEANT MAJOR/NW We have a multitude of
6 MOSs in our detachment who are commanded by, we have
7 a commander, (inaudible) operations officer, but we
8 also have medical personnel, (inaudible) which are
9 environmental control, MPs, clerical, supply, and

10 junior MP. That's the makeup of our team.
(\.,).
CAPTAIN mow Who did you receive your.

When
12 did your unit receive their orders to perform this

/7:\.
\..1)

13 function at Abu Prison?
14.SERGEANT MAJOR ARM It would be when we first
15 got.th of January, our

We got into Kuwait on the 29
16 advanced party consisting of myself, Commander XO,

17 and an E795B. We got up here February 1 st if I'm not
18 mistaken, anp then we took half of our team,
(inaudible) officer and some MPs. We got down to Abu

20 t raib if I'm not mistaken February 3 rd or 4 th .

A
21.PTAIN NEW Of 2004?
22.SERG ANT MAJORAIIIIII, Yes sir.

019667

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99
1.CAPTAIN111111, And did you perform an inspection
2 and a training4i/s-si n or just truly inspection?
3.SERGEANT MAJOR.Well, we're actually
4 working out of our role. We're more involved in
5 detaining operations because there really is no
6.So, we were working ...

(inaudible) normally operate..
7 Our mission kind of changed when we got here. So,
8 we're working more on the detainee operations, trying
9 to get the detainees released..

For example, our 10 commander sits on the Release Board and they 11 recommend X lmount of detainees to be released per 12 day and then it takes a while for those detainees to 13 get through the system..
So, usually once or twice a
14 week we receive a release list from CKTF7 and we
15 arrange to have the detainees released, i.e., check-
16 in, ISN numbers of the detainees, arrange for bus
17 transportation, and we arrange, make sure they get
18 like a $10 stocking fund that gets them from point,
19 you know, from when they're released it gets them
20 back to their home town. So we're more on the
21 detainee release business (inaudible) called EPW
22 Camps, etc.

019668

DOD-042748

100
1.APTAIN Now, when you took over this
2.

unction in February at Abu Prison, did you notice
any deficiencies based bn your experience and
training in detainee operations?

5.SERGEANT MAJOR We noticed mainly living

.

6 conditions of the detainees (inaudible) environmental

A-)

7 concerns. We had identified some medical concerns to

ko!

8 ensure that the detainees were receiving a proper
9 diet. There's a whole host of chronic medical
10 detainees in there..

So we identified to make sure
11 that they were receiving proper medical care,
12 receiving proper prescriptions and that's pretty much
13 what we identify.
14.CAPTAIN NM The people, soldiers that were

present in February, were they first in detainee

16 o erations?
17 EANT MAJOR MINP I can't say that sir. I'm
18 not sure if they were..

I mean, we were more exposed
19 when we walked through the camps or the Hard Site.
20 The MPs would be on site, you know, guarding the
21 detainees or providing security for those camps or
22 the Hard Site. The dealings that we had, like on the

23

environmental concerns, we found out those issues had

019669
DOD-042749
101
1 basically already been addressed through previous
2 assessment.
3.CAPTAIN Amp Who do you take, like reports of
4 deficiencies, who do you address those to?
5/.

SERGEANT MAJOR /NW First of all, we were
giving them to our commander and then they would go
up the proper chain.

8.CAPTAIN Is there a company level

.
9 commander?
(0.) 10.

SERGEANT MAJOR No sir. (inaudible) 12-
11 man detachment, but we're commanded by Lieutenant
12 Colonel (inaudible).

.

.
14 be then to implement corrections (inaudible) or
15.SERGEANT MAJOR No sir. Typically, we're

\---) 13 CAPTAIN And whose responsibility would it

.
16 just, as I said, an advisor team. As you know, down
17 like at Abu Ghraib, for example, you have battalions

and there would be a battalion down there that's
19 overseeing detainee operations responsible for the
20.

ning of th- camp.

Are you aware of any.
22 detainees that are currently there, what kind of

21.CA With the
23

detainees? That's the larger

019670
DOD-042750
102

.
1 SERGEANT MAJOR 11111 Typically they secure the
2 detainees. The securi y detainees are kept in Camp
3 Ganci or Vigilant and then the current so-called
4 criminals are actually kept in the Hard Site at PCCF,
5 which is (inaudible) of Abu Ghraib.

.(_!1 1(*)

6 CAPTAIN =it.

nc1 you mentioned security
7 detainees and another w'tness mentioned security
8 detainees this morning as well..

So what exactly is a
9 security detainee?

10.SERGEANT MAJORAIIIII, A security detainee is a

11 detainee, an individual that has been brought in

12 through (inaudible) and until the Release Board

13 reviews their package, they can be accused of

14 anything from being at the wrong place at the wrong

15 time, to acts against coalition forces..

There's a
16 whole multitude of charges that there can be.
17 Typically the criminals from what I'm told are like
18 Iraqi crimes and they go to the Hard Site, but the
19 majority of the detainees down at Abu Ghraib would be
20 considered security detainees.
21.CAPTAIN MN And the other detainees, are they

.

(00-7-

22 criminals?

.

23.SERGEANT MAJOR I don't have that sir.

019671

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103

1.CAPTAIN.Would there be any prisoners or
2 detainees present at Abu that would be (inaudible)?
3.

SERGEANT MAJ Ramp Sir, I'm not qualified to

4 answer that .socir5)/ -7..)
5 CAPTAIN An knowledge or paperwork which
6 you are aware of describ ng the demographics of who
7 exactly is being detaine. at Abu?

8.SERGEANT MAJOR.No sir. That may be at

9 the higher level, when our commander, until the
10 Release Board reviews the packages, that may be all ...
11 Typically what we're concerned, our main concern is
12 when the security detainees are brought in, you know,
13 the paperwork is done by the detainee force or the
14 detainee power that's bringing in. And for example,
15 down at Abu Ghraib, you know, you have US Forces,
16 Army, now that we have arranged on ground the Marines
17 are bringing in security detainees to make sure they
18 have a capture tag and a statement, you know, why
19 they were brought in, i.e. acts against coalition

20.

forces, crimes.

ainst coalition forces.

21.CAPTAIN.So if you were to have a list of
22 detainees, there should be paperwork of some sort
23 describing why they'r'e being detained?

019672

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104
1.SERG A-NT MAJOR.Yes sir.
2.PTAINIIIIIIr And that would be true for every
3 deitainee being processed through Abu?

/ 4 //.SERGEANT MAJOR Yes sir, it should be.
.
5/7 CAPTAIN Ma Is there Military Intelligence at

,/
/6 Abu?

/ 7

SERGEANT MAJOR .

Yes sir, MI is part of the 8 processing complex down there. You have MI, you have r\-).
9 medical and the detainees who are brought in are 10 getting a brief, I'm not saying physical, but 11 basically a brief rundown according to the Geneva
Ul

12 Convention. You know, that's part of the in
13 processing and they have to be given a quick, I won't
14 say physical, but a quick rundown to make sure that
15 they're not injured or something.

CAPTAINAIIIII, Are they.

Are detainees
17 interrogated at all?

18.SERGEANT MAJORAIIIII, I'm not sure sir. That's
19 not art of the role of our team.
20.CAPTA.Have you seen.

Are you aware of
21 an entity known as the, and I don't know if I'm

22

pronouncing it right, CACI Corporation, C-A-C-I?

019673

DOD-042753

1.SERGEANT MAJOR.No sir. I'm aware those 2 MI 3 fAlks within the processing center but I'm not aware
CAPTAIN .1111. As far as any specific duties,
you don't know ...
SERGEANT MAJO .

No sir.
CAPTAIN SHUCK: Is there other government

f\ij 9 agencies present at the Abu Prison?
10.SERGEANT MAJOR"... There's civilian
11 contractors (inaudible) but I'm not sure of any other

t"--° )

contracting firms down there.

13 .CAPTAIN'S'S". Thank you very much.
.

Yes sir.
..

14 SERGEANT MAJOR .

15 CAPTAIN I have nothing sir.
..

16 CAPTAIN (inaudible) terminology that
17 you've been using, EPW, detainee..

Is the term
18 detainee pretty much the universal term for a
19 prisoner (inaudible)?

SERGEANT MAJOR .

Yes sir. If they're not
9 .
21 \classified as an Enemy Prisoner of War.

Do not discuss this case with

anyone other than counsel and myself until after this

DOD-042754
106

1 trial is over..

Should anyone else attempt to discuss
2 this case or your testimony with you, refuse to do
3.

so,

4 and report the attempt to me immediately. Do you
5 understand.

at?
6.GEANT MAJOR.Yes sir.

7.MAJOR.Have a nice. You are excused.

SERGEANT MAJOA0111111, Thank you sir.
.

MAJOR Thank you.
.

10.CAPTAIN Sir,; I believe First Sergeant
11 lirialffir (ph) and Captain111111pare going to be here
12.

at 1300 (inaudible).
13.CAPTAIN .

(inaudible)
14.CAPTAINA0111111WI don't think the government has

\,,,..315 an objection to that sir. r.MAJOR111111111111111111, We've reconvened and
16 It's 1316..
17 all parties are once again present.

18.CAPTAIN.We wish to call Captaining",
sir.
20.• JOR .

Before I begin the questioning,
21 I'm going to read you your rights..

(inaudible) wants
22 to question you about the following facts which
23.

(inaudible) accused maltreatment of detainees and

019675

DOD-042755

107

1 dereliction of duty. Before I ask you these
2 questions, I'm going to read you the following rights
3 sir. You don't have to answer any question or say
4 anything. Anything you say can be used as evidence
5 against you in a criminal trial. You have the right
6 to talk privately to a lawyer before, during or after
7 questioning and have a lawyer present. The lawyer
8 could be a civilian arranged at no expense to the
9 government or military lawyer detailed for you at no

10 expense..

If you're not willing to discuss the events
11 of the investigation without a lawyer present, you
12 have the right to stop answering questions at any
13 time or seek a private lawyer before you answer any
14 questions.
15.CAPTAIN.I wish to say nothing at this
16.

time.

(
17.MAJOR 11.1.111111 We'll just have you sign that
18.

form.
19.CAPTAIN Sir at this time the defense

.
20 (inaudible) Captai011111F quest that as part of
21 your investigation officer report that given the
22 nature of the charges against the accused, that

testimony immunity be granted as to Captai

_

I MI I I
019676

DOD-042756

108
1 testimony. And then at a later date we continue
2 Article 32 and that Captain.ill testify under
3 testimony immunity.

Z/

4.CAPTAIN ­
.as part of.

Si.unity,
5.

(inaudible) sworn st ement from Captain.hich
6 could be entered nto the record.
7.CAPTAIN.(inaudible) for a full and
8 complete investigation report. (inaudible) at any
9 time can grant testimony (inaudible) and that can be

10 part of your (inaudible).
11.CAPTAIN.(inaudible) what the testimony
12 is going to be ( naudible)..

I'm not sure what we're
13 talking about h re..

(inaudible)
14.CAPTAIN.Sir, as I mentioned before
15 earlier today, (inaudible) for the Army of this case
16 and the other individuals accused of this same crime.
17 It has comp to defense's knowledge that repeated
18 requests for guidance, standard operating procedures,
19 SOPs, (inaudible) set up by this commander and his
20 higher commanders, all the way up to general officer
21 level..(inaudible) military

None was given..
22 intelligence officer involved in intensive
23 interrogation of detainees, condoned some of the

019677

DOD-042757

109
1 activities and stressed that that was standard
2 procedure but what the accused (inaudible). He noted
3 that there was a strange (inaudible) by the MI,
4.

(inaudible) withholding food and water. Were the
5 Geneva Conventions being followed? All of that will
6 be questioned by the chain of command and denied.
7 (inaudible) Present during some of these happenings,
8 it has come to my knowledge that Lieutenant General
9 Sanchez was even present at the prison during some of

10 these interrogations and/or allegations of the
11 prisoner abuse by the (inaudible)..

Congressional
12 people (inaudible)
13.CAPTAIN .

Are you saying that Captain
14 Allillris going to testify that General Sanchez was
15 there and sa what was going on?
16.CAPTAIN.We can bring him in sir.
17 Testimony immunity. That's what he told me..

I'm an
18 officer of the court and I would not lie..

I've got
19 three children at home..

I'm not going to risk my
M career ....

(0(9)-z-
21.CAPTAIN/Mira First of all, what you're saying
22 is that Captain.asked for some (inaudible)..

So
23 what..

Sir, we're talking about specific crimes of

019678
DOD-042758
110

1 assault here and no SOP in the world is going to say
2 that you can assault people (inaudible) lewd acts and
3 maltreatment (inaudible)..

Unless he's got some 4 testimony as to that, I think this is ridiculous, 5 it's getting rddiculous. 6.CA3,2"KINAIIIII, Sir, the government and 7.
(in1011dible) is doing a good job of pointing that out.
8 yriterestingly enough though, one of the charges is
V willful dereliction of duty and I urge you to go back

AO to your legal question, look at the definition of
11 willful dereliction of duty..

It requires as one of
/ 12 its elements that you need specific knowledge of the

LI

13 duties, and that is (inaudible) that the government
14 has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt..

So ...
N...1

8 15.CAPTAINAIIIIII, Sir, what does this have to do
c...0

•...._ 16 with Captain If he wants that as his closing
n-)

......3 , 17 argument and he wants to discuss the elements of the
-.._..)

18 case, that's fine, but I don't think this has
anit;) I 0°1-

19 anything to do with Captain . If Ca;77174111111, 20 will come in here and discuss what an NCO has to do, 21 they can bring an NCO in here and decide what an 22 NCO's responsibilities are. We can do that. Captain 23 111111, .
First Sergeant (inaudible) and at

019679

DOD-042759

111
1 the time the commander, Lieutenant Colonel
alfaralgin all can testify to those things. Because
3 remember sir, _

.CAPTAINI11111, They've invoked their right

Y 4

---,

5 against self-incrimination.
6.CAPTAIN"... You're asking for a (inaudible)
7 giving any answer.
8.Well, this is why it's so
9 important sir. We can talk about like when I brought

10 the Sergeant Major in when he talked about where some
11 of his training and guides and duties come from.
12 Sir, if you look at my ... Common thinking here is
13 what I'm trying to get at with my request for
14 evidence that the government hasn't produced yet or
15 several of these witnesses that the government hasn't
16 produced yet... (inaudible) scope of duties and what
17 is condoned and what's not condoned..

It appears that
18 it was a madhouse at this prison..

If you charge a
19 soldier with 20 years of servdce in with willfu.I
20 dereliction of duty, you better be prepared to
21 describe what those duties are..

If it's standard
22 practice for the military intelligence community at
23 Abu Ghraib Prison to utilize (inaudible)..

Sir, you

019630
DOD-042760
112

1 don't even have to look at testimony. Look at the
2 'CID report•.

In there is an SOP for military
3 intelligence dated October of 2003 which discussed
4.

(inaudible) withholding food and water, stuff that at
5 a glance I don't think the U.S. Army now considers
6 was a good idea. But right now, you're charging him
7 with willful dereliction of those duties without
8 telling us what those duties we're describing..

It is

9 only fair that we find out. He was asking his chain
10 of command to come back and tell me, what am I
11 supposed to do? Is this right? This does not seem
12 to be right. Now if we have to ask that NCO
13.

(inaudible) commander, hey, you know, there's
14 somebody here that's responsible for outlining these
15 duties, and if people are doing it wrong, then the
16.

(inaudible). All we have now is the government
17 reacting after the fact with a bunch of pictures
18.

(inaudible) whitewash (inaudible) soldiers about this
19 conduct and then hide the fact of what was condoned
20 at the time..

It is only fair that we talk about what 21 those soldier ditties were..
(inaudible) First
22 Sergeant , he's not going to waive his
23 rights, but he would testify as to his scope of

019681.
DOD-042761

113

1 duties as an NCO (inaudible). He will then further
2 testify about what requests he made of his superiors
3 of hey, this does not look right like all these
4 officers, general officers, congressional personnel,
5 other government agencies that go (inaudible)
6 military intelligence officials were saying that
7.This is what we want you to do..

(inaudible)..Sir,
8 look at some of those (inaudible) statements that are
9 present in the CID packet..

It's very interesting to

10 know, especially from the prisoners themselves, the

11 detainees themselves, how we're talking about the

12 classic good copy/bad cop. One guy did come in and

13 beat me or take away my food. The other guy the next

14 morning would give me food and bring my cot back.

15 These were ... I'm not making this stuff up..

It's in
16 the packet..We need to

It's in the CID packet..
17.Sir,

(inaudible) into that and find out (inaudible)..

18 that's part of your duties as an investigating
19 officer is to tell (inaudible)..Who is responsible?
20 Who is willfully derelict in their duties..That's
21 all (inaudible)..(inaudible) there's something going

22 on because we have three people right in a row who

23.

(inaudible) at this time and is being accused of this

019682
DOD-042762
114

1 dereliction of duty. Yet Staff Sergeant Frederick
2 sits to my left right now being accused of those
3 crimes..

I think that defining the soldier duties,

¦)(d
4 especially as charged, (inaudible) has to prove
5 beyond a reasonable doubt..There's much(inaudible).
6 more..

c
7.CAPTAINAIIIIII, I'll keep this brief sir. First
8 of all, we don't have to prove beyond a reasonable
9 doubt..

We've already talked about what (inaudible).
10 You are here to look at the truth of each charge, not

VO—t
11 the charges against or Cap jaTrifl.r
12 everybody else (inaudible) in the grand scheme of
13 things..

Sir, you need to focus on the elements of
14 the charges against the accused, the specific
15 elements, and it has to be by reasonable belief or
16 reasonable grounds that these are true, not beyond a
17 reasonable doubt. And if the defense believes there
18 is something going on because (inaudible) and maybe
19 there is something going on..

I don't doubt it.
20 There may be something going on here. These people
21 have chosen not to make statements but if you believe
22 that the evidence that showed something is going on,

23.

(inaudible) accused testify under that same standard.

019683

DOD-042763

115
1 But we're not here (inaudible) Waffailiallillyand
2 all those other things..

Sir, I must ask you to focus
3 on the elements on the offenses that we have here on

4 what the accused did on those days, and once again,
5 we (inaudible) you'll find by a reasonable belief,
6 reasonable grounds that the accused did these
7 charges.

8.CAPTAIN NM (inaudible) duties. The CID

9 agent this morning testified that there is no
10 presence of any SOPs, no training gu/dance at all.
11 That's the evidence so far in this hearing today.
12 So, if that is the fact of the case, then the
13 government has not shown reasonable grounds to prove
14 willful violation of his duties, willful derelictioA
15 of duties. If I may, I have more that Captain 411(111U1
16 can offer as far as the scope of the duties but he
17 can talk, because he's part of this reserve unit, he
18 can also talk about the reserve unit training
19.Once again, (inaudible) is the scope of

(inaudible)..
20 duties..

He can talk about the (inaudible) trained
21 for years and how they were put in the situation by
22 the chain of command in a place without guidance
23 outside the scope of their normal duties. He could

019684

DOD-042764

116
1 also possibly describe other people besides
2.

(inaudible) and what their role in this entire
3 investigation..

It's an option that the government
4 has to make sure that this is a full and fair
5 proceeding. And we just ask that you go back to the
6 legal advisor and look into the option of the
7.

(inaudible) granting testimony immunity (inaudible)
8 prosecution to do once you do bring someone, but the
9 record of testimony immunity for purposes of this

10 Article 32 investigation or further court proceedings
11 seems to be necessary given the proper evidence that
12.Thank you sir. And I'll make the same

(inaudible)..
13 argument (inaudible) officer and First Sergeant as
14.

well.
15.MAJOR.. Do you want to bring them back
16 or.

you want to leave on the record to 17.CAPTAIN OWN (inaudible) 18 Af MAJOR.(inaudible) rights. 19 s--19.CAPTAIN/111 Once again.
.(inaudible) to
20 cinvoke their rights.
21.CAPTAIN I would like to take a short

.
22 re -ss and bring Sergeant.(ph) back who has
23 been t ing to track down hese other witnesses. And

019685

DOD-042765

117
1 then at some point we can go on the record and
2 determine who's unavailable (inaudible)..

So if we
3 can find Sergeant IIIIIIIp(ph) (inaudible).

; Q-L

4.MAJOR. Okay. We're back on the record. 5 It's 1341 and all parties are once again present. We 6 have no more witnesses here presently. We have a 7 list from the defense. We just want to go through 8 these and determine who's unavailable and or at least 9 narrow it down to who per the defense wants and of
10 those who is unavailable. General Karpinski is in
11 Kuwait as far as I know and I believe he's in Kuwait.
12 He's in Kuwait on this case..

I'm not sure
13.That being over 100 miles, he's

(inaudible)..14 unavailable. 15.CAPTAIN .The defense is conducive to the 16 alternative,.
ants the testimony either by telephone,
17 video teleconfe ence, whatever.
18.Well, we don't have any of those

CAPTAIN
19 assets here in the country right now. We tried to
20 get that..Telephonic is not

We talked about it.....
21 We don't have the proper phone lines or the thing to
22.

do that so ...

019686

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118

1.MAJOR.Sir, have you contacted anybody
2 in the United States since you've been here?
3.(inaudible) 100-mile radius (inaudible) rule that
4 says if they're outside of it, they're unavailable.
5 It's (inaudible) investigation process (inaudible).
6 The inside the 100 rule is where the analysis takes
7 place and whether or not (inaudible)..

So if these
8 people (inaudible), and it's within your discretion
9 to declare them unavailable at that point at which

10 time (inaudible).
11.(inaudible) recess and go talk to the legal
12 advisor..

(inaudible)
13.(inaudible) Well, we're not getting legal advice.

We're going through this and he absolutely can, he's
15 going to make a decision whether (inaudible). But
16 before we go to that rule, legal advisor needs to
17 have the list narrowed down to what he (inaudible)
18 decision basedion his understanding of the rules.
19.CAPTAIN Okay. Captain, interrupt me if

.
20 you got another4Mon or someone else (inaudible).
21 I'm just going through this list as I have in this e-
22 mail. Captain 8811111".

(6)10-1.-

019687

DOD-042767

Doc_nid: 
4046
Doc_type_num: 
734