Article 32 Proceedings: Transcript of Article 32 Proceeding Against Sergeant Scott A. McKenzie

This document is the continued transcript of the Article 32 proceeding against Sergeant Scott A. McKenzie. This transcript picks-up after a recess in the hearing. It starts at 8:00 am on September 1, 2003 and recesses again at 5:05 pm on September 1, 2003.

Doc_type: 
UCMJ
Doc_date: 
Monday, September 1, 2003
Doc_rel_date: 
Thursday, June 30, 2005
Doc_text: 

[The Article 32 hearing held with witnesses at Camp Doha, Kuwait reconvened at
0800 hours, 01 September 2003.1

DIRECT EXAMINATION
Mi--(1J&Kc -V
tall1011111111111 U.S. Army, was called as a witness for the government, was sworn and testified as follows:
0 -

Questions by the trial counsel: mmigium (b)P Z -01­
Counsel:
You arearariallairski a ?kat correct? ("-­

4)(4dii {7)(6)---
Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
You're currently assigned to the 320 TH MP Battalion?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
And where is the 320TH stationed right now?

Witness:
In Baghdad.

Counsel:
Do you recall the night of twelfth May of this year?

Witness:.
Yes.

Counsel:
On that evening, you remember a conversation that your husband had with Sergeant
441111111111P in your presence?

Witness:
We didn't have it with her, but she was in there talking about it.

Counsel:
(7)(c)
Did you hear what Serge110111111M1m.to say? (.-b) V
Witness:
Yes.

012696
DOD 14353
Counsel:
Could you tell the investigating officer what she had to say?

Witness: She was talking abOut ilit3r mission and how they had escorted some prisoners. When they got them off the bus, Sergeant McKenzie had to--he flipped a prisoner. Specialist
(bh) - m-s-41pIthad to put a prisoner on the ground forcefully because the prisoners had twisted lug wrist. And she was talking about th&three females, they had the prisoners who raped (06 -30.6)-31100101. and the prisoners didn't like what they were doing to them.
Counsel 1f
When you talk about the three females, who are the three females you are referring to?

Witness:
She never gave names, but the onl three females we knew that were on the mission were
Sergeant• Sergeant and Sergeant IMF (46)-c/ - -y

17,g) -sped
Counsel:
When

When you said the EPWs didn't like what happened to them, what happened to the EPWs?
Witness:
All she said is they were kicking them. She didn't specify where.

Counsel: (6)a.) - /(7) Cc.)-s After that incident, did Master Sergeant 411111ver approach you or your husband in your presence?
Witness: She did. When we were sitting outside the ALOC she approached us. She advised my husband to get an attorney. CID wanted to question him again. She said.to get an
'(•••••e:.
attorney because they were going to do a lie detector.
Counsel:
Did she ever ask your husband questions about that night?

Witness:
She asked him what he saw. He said nothing. She winked and said that's right.

Counsel: (-6@.) J.(- y
Specialist 111111111!`that's all I have for you right now, but answer any questions the
defense counsel might have for:you.

012697

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the defense counsel: CPQ IMIMIL (-4)-0) (7)(0. t---
Counsel: (6 it,m1
Speciali , you said she was bragging about what happened on the night of the
twelfth, correct?

Witness:
I don't know if it was bragging, sir. She was smiling and just started talking about it.

Counsel:
Later on you said that your husband told you that he had bragged that he had kneed or
kicked one of the prisoners in the leg or the testicles, on the bus, correct?

• 0, •(#,,.
Witness:
He told me that after he made a statement. I didn't know about that until...we were in
Arian when he told me about that.

Counsel:
He told you the reason he said that is because he didn't want to seem like a wimp,
correct?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
And you said that when Sergean came in, she said that the females did
something to the guy that rap ?.(21C)

-Witness: Yes sir.
Counsel:
And that he didn't like what they were doing to them.

Witness:
The prisoner didn't like what they were doing to him.

Counsel:
And you said that she did not mention the names of the females, correct?

Witness:
No she did not.

012698
DOD 14355
Counsel:
You just assumed that she meant the three females from the 320 TH?

Witness:
Yes sir. We didn't find out that there was another female on the mission so, like a week
afterwards, we knew that there was another female on the mission.

Counsel:
She never clarified exactly who she was talking about, correct?

Witness:
No sir.

Counsel:
And you made a sworn statement in front of Majo on thirteen June, is that right?

Witness:
Somewhere in there, sir. I'm not sure what day it was.

Counsel:
Okay. In that statement you said that Serge t said that Master Sergeant

(40 5)4)-S.Sergeant and Sergeant had to take the EPW that had raped PW did not like what they were doing to him.
Witness: Maj--,/, (7)(Q-
Yes sir.

Counsel:
But that's not exactly what was said, correct?

0; (4,C0--/' "i
Witness: -.
No sir. I said that and then I told MajoillPf that I assumed that she meant the three
females, and then I said the three females names.

Counsel:
And what was told to you was three females, correct?

Witness:
Yes sir.

OP-i, (7){.)
Counsel:
And were you present the entire time that Sergeant 1111111111 was speaking in the tent?

Witness:
Yes sir.

012699
DOD 14356
Counsel:
And you said that they were kicking him, but she did not say where he was being kicked?

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel:
I don't have any other questions for you. Some of the other defense counsel may have
questions.

Questions by the defense counsel: MAJI11110 (-4X)1 -*)
Counsel: (h,6)-60)6)
Specialist Vu .said you saw your husband right after he finished his detail, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And he didn't look upset, did he?

Witness:
Not really ma'am.

Counsel:
He was tired?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
He told you some other things that happened on that trip, didn't he, such as the EPWs on
the bus were looking out the window even thought they were told not to?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And he also told you that they were isobeying orders not to look up and they were
actually looking at Serge , rrect?

(A) -5-)C-7)e
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And that Sergeani41111PWas the NCOIC on the bus? .
Ch) (4 )--Ct K.7)(0
012700
DOD 14357
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And she had to yell at them to make them comply with the rules of the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: 1.(71)
And did she tell you that the prisoner that Specialist11101End Specialis ad to
put on the ground...she did say that they had to do it because he twist s wrist?

4)=67(7)&-i
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And did she also tell you that he was six feet tall, weighing over two hundred seventy
pounds?

Witness:
No ma'am she did not.

Counsel:
Did she tell you that that prisoner broke his hand restraints while they were escorting
him?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Did she tell you that hed the prisoners head down to try to gain control of him
before they put him on the gro 9

Witness:

(.(6.)--et,(7)(6 --Y
No ma'am.

Counsel:
She tell you that the EPW pushed his head back up and kicke ankle?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel: j (7)0J And then that's when4athad to go assist., (---)(4).-y J (7)(C) -
012701
Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Thank you I have no more questions.

Questions by the defense counsel: CPTiarit a‘61—Z; (-7Xel
Counsel: agio,Ci)-q ) (71c) 4
Your husband, Specialist as sent down to fjan, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You remember when he was sent down to Camp Ari fjan?

Witness:
I think it was the beginning of June, I'm not sure exactly when it was.

Counsel:
Before he went down to Ari fjan, you talked about the escort mission and what happened
on the bus, right?

Witness:
Briefly. We never got into it.

Counsel:
He told you that he didn't assault anybody?

Witness:
Right.

Counsel:
He didn't do anything and he didn't see anything.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Then he was sent down to Arifjan, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

012702
DOD 14359
Counsel:
After he left, you went and talked to CID, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: . that
When you went to talk to OD, CID told youh you{ husband was lying?
Witness:
They told me that everybody was Vag.
Counsel:

So everyone involved in the escort mission was lying.
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And they told you that your husband was involved in what happened?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Or your husband had seen what happened?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that he-had lied to them about it?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that they were going to make sure that everybody that was involved in the escort
mission was going to go to jail, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You were pretty concerned about your husband at that point, right?
012703

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You called him on the phone to find out what was going on, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You were upset because you thought he wasn't truthful with you?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:.
So the two of you argued a little bit about what CID told you versus what your husband
had originally told you, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you told your husband we need to go back and think about what you remember from
that night, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
We need to go back and try and think about the details of what happened?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.
(_4) -Zi OW -a-

Counsel:
About a week or two later, you talked to Majorigillione of the prosecutors in this
case, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
He came to see you in Camp Bucca?

Witness: Yes ma'am.
012704
DOD 14361
Counsel:
And he told you that he reviewed your husband's statement, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then you gave him a sworn statement, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
After you gave him that sworn statement, your husband came back up to Camp Bucca,
right?

Witness:
It was about two or three weeks later that he came back up, ma'am.

Counsel:
Thank you Specialist0010 4).-V;(7)0

Questions by the defense counsel: CP11111011.00, (4)-2) Im-
4 ,6-7 (0
Counsel:
Specialis want to talk to you a little bit about the conversation that your
husband ani y• urself had with Master Sergeant411111P'You said that you were at the
ALOC and she approached you in the truck?

(b)q,) (7KO
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And she said to your husband that CID wanted to interview him again?

Witness: • 4
Yes ma'am. She said that CID wanted to interview all of them again, ma'am.

Counsel:
All of them again?

Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And she told your husband that he aught to get an attorney, correct?
012705
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
This is not the first person that told you he needed to get an attorney.

Witness:
No it was not, ma'am.

Counsel:
The Sergeant Major of your unit was telling him to get an attorney?

Witness: alk-51 (70-y
Sergeant Major, Major11111P.mostly the corrections officers and the police officers,
and some of the lawyers were the ones that were saying to get an attorney before they
talk to CID again.

Counsel:
Okay, so this was nothing out of the ordinary? This is what everybody else had been
saying, that he should get an attorney.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
As a matter of fact, all of his leadership was advising all of these individuals to get an
attorney, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
So your husband was not at all concerned, or you, about this comment?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Now, after she said that, then she asked him what he saw that night, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And he said he had seen nothing, correct?

O 1 27 ^6
DOD 14363
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
That is what he had told you all along, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that is actually what he'd put in his statement to CID, that he saw nothing, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
That was the end of the conversation, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Weren't concerned at all about this conversation.

Witness:
Not at all.

Counsel:
It was a non-event to you.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Neither you or your husband ever felt that there was any sort of pressure being put on you
to say anything different.

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Thank you.

I/O:
Re-direct?

012707
DOD 14364
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by the trial counsel: MAJ .& ) -a; ['TA-) - z-
Counsel: --1
Specialist back on that conversation that occurred near the ALOC...about the
other folks that advised your husband to get lawyers, did they ever come up to your
husband and say you've seen nothing right?

Witness:
No not at all.

Counsel:
When they told him to get a lawyer and say that you've seen nothing right, did they wink
at him?

Witness:
No sir.

Counsel:
Okay. You were not on the bus coming back from Tallil to Camp Bucca?

Witness:
I was not on the mission.

Counsel: (0.(0)-S
When Sergeant ame in to talk to your husband on the night of the mission,
what was her mood when she described what happened on the mission?

Witness:
She was just smiling. She didn't really have a mood.

Counsel:
That's all I have sir.

I/O:
Anyone on the defense?

Defense counsel:
No, sir.

Questions by the Investigating Officer: LTCW/10 4 WO "IN.— 2
c6).,7t) - q.$) 0-6 j
Specialis Master Sergeant came up to your husband and advised him to get an attorney, at a later time after the mission?
012708
Witness: Yes sir.
(.., - (7,r0 -S
I/O:
And then it was Master Sergeantillithat asked your husband if he had seen
anything; he said no; she said that's right and winked at him, according to your story?

Witness:
Yes sir.

I/O:
Okay. Your husband said at some point that he had kneed and kicked an EPW on the
bus, is that correct?

Witness:
Afterwards, yes sir. He said that.

I/O:
And he said that...?

Witness:
He said it to Sergeantgaila.vanting her to think that he wasn't a wimp.

I/O:
When did that exchange take place?

Witness:
I'm not sure when that happened, sir. I wasn't there.

I/O:
When did you find out about that?

Witness:
I found out when he was in Camp Arian.

I/O:
Some time later?

Witness:
Yes sir.

I/O: aX0 (7-CC)
I understand that SpecialistailWrisoner...there seemed to be some justification for
his action, is that correct?

012709
Witness:
SergeantallWaid that Specialisillerad his wrist twisted. That's why they
had to force -e prisoner on the ground.

I/O:
And then there were some other circtunstances as well?

Witness:
I didn't know about them sir.

VO:
Okay. Did you ever talk to Sergeantimip Sergeant fillresides the
conversation that you indicated here?

Witness:
We talked a lot. We never talked about the case. Just talked as friends, and as an NCO.

I/O:
Ever spoken with any of the other accused or any other members of your Battalion with
regard to this incident?

Witness:
No sir.

I/O:
No one's come to you with information, besides what you've indicated here?

Witness:
No sir.

I/0:
Anyone else-have further questions?-

Questions by the trial counsel: MAJOIllar-(3)‘) -2 ) (7(C)
-2

cm.) -

Counsel: (6)C6,) - ;
Do you remember Sergeant...ry anything about Sergeant McKenzie?

Witness:
Just that he had flipped a prisoner.

Counsel:
That's all I have.

I/O: Anyone else? Specialis 111111.7nk you.

012710
[The witness was duly warned, dismissed and withdrew from the room.]1 1 1k DIRECT EXAMINATION
a&)-60.P.rd -

SPC.appipt
, U.S. Army Reserve, was called as a witness for the government, a 'sworn and testified as follows:
Questions by the trial counsel: MAJIIIIIIIIIV6) -Z; (-)(Y - 2-
Counsel:
You are Specialist I (h)p_v'l am
Witness:
Yes sir.
Counsel:

Currently assigned to the 320 TH MP Battalion?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Where is the 320TH stationed right now?

Witness:
Abu Garab prison, twenty miles southwest of Baghdad.

Counsel:
Do you recall the mission to pick up prisoners on the twelfth of May?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
On that mission, on the return trip from Tall, where were you?

Witness:
I was the unloader on the bus, the loader/unloader position.

Counsel:
How did the EPWs behave on the bus ride back?

Witness:
We had some minor incidents such as talking, looking out the window. We had one guy ,..
who wanted to stretch out his legs. W had one person look at Sergear4111111111111. at6)-5) 0)0,-
That was corrected by Sergeant ergeant

(5)(4)4,0)(0-LI . 012711
DOD 14368
00--5

Counsel:
There was no fighting on the bus?

Witnels:
No.

Counsel:
I'm sorry, could you speak up.

Witness:
I apologize. We had some minor incidents such as talking, looking out the window. We

had one who wanted to stretch out his legs. We had one person look at Sergeant
at was corrected by Sergeant d Sergeanant
Counsel: aW-vAtl- 9

When they were corrected, how did they respond to the corrections?

Witness:
The only one that kept repeating his problem was the one that kept stretching his legs
across the line. Everyone else seemed to have fallen in line.

Counsel:
I'll take you now to the unloading of the bus at Camp Bucca. Could you describe that
process for us?

Witness:
The bus pulled up to the in-processing area. Everyone got off the bus except for me. My
job was t unload the prisoners from where they were seated and hand them off to
Sergeant was waiting at the bottom of the stairs.

)-/ -(7)@-4
Counsel:
You performed this task for the entire unloading of the bus?

Witness:
Yes sir. My whole job was on the bus.

Counsel:
As you are doing this job, could you see outside?

Witness:
No sir. The windows were closed. The only time I peeked out was when I stuck my
head out the door.

Counsel:
Could you hear anything?

01271.2.

Witness:
You can hear screams and I did hear a stop resisting one time.

Counsel:
Can you tell me what type of screams did you hear?

Witness:
Male voices screaming is the best I can give you sir.

Counsel:
After you were done unloading the bus, what did you do?
;t.

I Witness: •ir After the Bus was completel unloaded I searched' the bus for anything4h6rinay have left behind. Sergean ame on the bus and said that was it. We got off the bus and I went back to sleep.
0.10-5(1 (7 6)--v
Counsel:
After the mission, did you speak with anyone else about what happened on the bus?

Witness: (6)0 -ci(7)e.i
After unloading our vehicles, I ran into Serge4111111111and she made a statement to
me.

Counsel:
What did she tell you?

Witness .

She had laid she ad kicked and kneed someone in the balls...the three females that
escorted one of the rapists. And, that she saw Sergeant McKenzie flip somebody.

Counsel:
When she said she kicked somebody in the balls, who did she say she kicked in the balls?

Witness:
The comment was directed towards one of the rapists. She said that the three females had
escorted one of the rapists, and that she had kicked him in the leg or ball region.

Counsel:
And the rapist wasn't part of your unit?

Witness:
No he was one of the prisoners.

012713
DOD 14370
Counsel: And what else did she tell you? I'm sorry, you mentioned a couple things after you talked about Sergean
M)--5; (7)(C)
Witness:
She had mentioned the flipping of...she said she saw Sergeant McKenzie flip somebody,
and that she had kicked somebody in the balls.

Counsel:
And then what did you do after that conversation?

Witness:
After that conversation, I found my wife. I talked to her a little bit and then I went to
bed.

4
Counsel:
Did you...have you subsequent conversations with Master SergeantillPU4)--5.47°--5—

Witness:
Excuse me sir?

Counsel: 1
Did you have conversations with Master Sergean

Sergeana$er that, after the mission?
Witness:
No sir.

Counsel:
You didn't see her in a white pickup, when you were in a white pickup with your wife?

Witness:
That wasn't after the mission sir. That was a couple weeks later, there after. After we'd
been questioned by CID.

Counsel:
Okay. You want to tell me about that conversation?

Witness: happened was my wife and I were in a white pickup at the ALOC. Sergeant opped by, as many others have, advised me to seek out a lawyer for question
p oses. We got into a conversation, basically the words were something to the effect of, the way I phrase it was, you didn't see anything right. And I said yes that's right; I didn't see anything. She winked at me. I didn't think it of anything. I thought it was just her looking at me. That's it.
012714
Counsel:
Okay. And after that, or the day before the CID interview, did you encounter Master
Sergeant again? (b4,) -5 J(c)

Witness:
Yes sir. I heard a rumor the night befor wer supposed to go to CID. And I went
over to their tent area. What had ipened was I ed to a few people prior to this.
And what it boiled down ti at Sergean olis

d I walked over towarc
tent. Sergean iroke off and we owar s U. I spoke to Sergean -Y5 7 J -41 who was on the back patio about my family and other things. And we went up...it was getting late so I went around the front of the tent. There was five people inside the tent plus one other. There was S eant cKenzie, Speciali pecialist
-i NOf Sergearaliknd Serge ey were all sitting e the tent. And there
was one other, I assumed it was pecialist It's a fe ale I saw sitting on the floor.
I went in and I told them the rum r that I heard, tha ID ha names of Sergeant
McKenzie flipping somebody an somebody assaultin e by kicking him in the
balls.

Counsel:
Could you describe the layout of that tent where this meeting was occurring?

Witness: (6)(4/ -i;(,)(c}
It was towards the front of the tent, which was Sergean geant
layout or living space. It was cordoned off by poAchos, a poncho wall. And it was
'list her...Sergeant ed on...when you walked ifrit was on the left, Sergeant

0.7 c-was on the right they were in a, kind of like a semi-circle around the area, in
0) -ci)
e front of this tent.
Counsel:
How large was the tent?

Witness:
It's a GP large.

Counsel:
Okay. And then how large is the area where you saw the meeting?

Witness:
I couldn't, enough for a cot and a walkway between each of the beds. I couldn't even
begin to guess for you.

Counsel:
Was there anyone else in the tent on the other side?

Witness:
No they were all out in the back enjoying a good time.

012 715
DOD 14372
Counsel: ; r,
I apologize. Let me take you back to the bus again. You said that you poked your head
outside at one point?

Witness:
Yes sir. When I heard the stop resisting an cream, I was in between
transitioning for a,prisoner fIr Sergean 4ped my head out to look out
towards the...I 1poked towards the rear of the bus and I saw what appeared to be two ­male soldiers with a male EPW on the ground.

Chr‘.) -51.0g)--;
Counsel: -• ¶ '. During a with SergeantliMilltd you ever tell her that you had one
kicked one of the prisoners? 4....

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Why did you do that?

Witness:
It was just to bolster my image. I was lying.

Counsel:
You were lying to Sergeant 111111111111. IbiC6i.(7W

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Are you telling the truth today?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Okay. Sir that's all I have for right now.

I/0:
Defense?

012716

CROSS-EXAMINATION Questions by the defense counsel: CPT .C6.). M -2.
,0 —2 )
Counsel: Oki
One moment. Specialist yo are in First Platoon, right?
A.
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

(41p-c6C-06
Counsel:
Sergeant First Class imoi your Platoon Sergeant?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Do you remember who detailed you to go on this mission?

Witness: C4)0—16(7)0- V
As I stated toou earlier today, to my best recollection, it was either Sergeant

eana t as or Serg As of to when, I do not know. . -k) -q)C7k)--1 Counsel:
"
Okay, but it came from your platoon; right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
When you got to Talil-, Sergean gave you a briefing about the EPWs you were
going to be transporting, correct.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
What did he tell you about the EPWs who was going to be on the bus?

Witness:
He told me...he pointed out to me, by using gestures instead of, so not to alert the EPWs
who was a high priority; who was a low priority. Such as what...and their background as
to the high priorities.

Counsel: Okay. Who were the high priorities?

012717

DOD 14374
Witness:
We had a General, a Major that trained the Fedahyeen soldiers. We had two FIFs,
previous soldiers. Eight people that supposedly sprung their buddies out of a jail. A
Major and a Captain from the police force. And two car dealers, or something to that

effect, had a large sum of money on them.

Counsel:
Can you remember what he told you about the interpreter?

Witness:
My apologies. Yes there was in interpreter. He was there during, supposedly there,
during the interpretation of the 507 TH Maintenance Company.

Counsel:
During the interrogation?

Witness:
The interrogation of the 507 TH Maintenance Company.
Counsel:
It was going to be your responsibility to load the bus, right?

Witness: .,x'
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And when you're loading the bus, you're the only person on the bus, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: --.
You'd never loaded a bus before, right?

Witness:
Not prior to this day, no ma'am.

Counsel:
Because it was your first escort mission, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And the guidance was low priority in the back, right?

012718
DOD 14375
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And high priority in the front.

Witness:
Yes ma' am.

Counsel: (4)4 /01d
And Sergeantrillatalso told you to pack' em in there pretty tight, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am, to leave a reactionary gap.

Counsel:
Okay. So you left a large buffer so that you guys could react?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. So we don't get overrun.

Sergeant as the one that was determining who, in what order the prisoners got
on the bus, right?

Witness:
That was prior to me. He was at the base of the door handing me the prisoners ma'am.

Counsel:
So your job was just to put them in their seats after he gave them to you?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You said that the Iraqi police Captain and Major were high priority, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And the Major who trained the Fedahyeen, he was high priority as well, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

012719
DOD 14376
Counsel:
And actually, the Major that trained the Fedahyeen was on crutches, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
He was the last one that you sat down on the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. yes matm, he was in the aisle-way ma'am.

Counsel:
So he was in the aisle-way and the Iraqi police Captain and Major were behind him in the
aisle-way, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. They were in line in the aisle-way ma'am.

Counsel:
And when you loaded them onto the bus, they didn't want to have to sit three to a seat,
right?

Witness
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
So you had to tell them and move them to get them to sit, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
So your first step is tell them to sit, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then you actually had to move some of the prisoners to get them to sit where you
wanted them to sit?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: And they didn't want to be quiet either, right?
012720
Witness:
Not during loading process ma'am. They were talking amongst each other ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. Now you said you had some problems during the ride, right?

Witness:

Yes ma'am. They were small problems such as talking, people looking out the window,

and as I said before, the Fedahyeen kept stretching his legs past our imaginary line that

we had drawn.

Counsel:

Okay. So the guy on the crutches, that was sitting in the aisle...

Witness:

Yes ma'am.

Counsel:

Kept moving his legs over the line where you told him..

Witness:

Not to, yes ma'am.

Counsel:

You told him quit doing that many times during the trip, right?

Witness:

Not me personally, but a bunch of us ma'am, yes.

Counsel:

Okay. He just kept kicking his feet out.

Witness:

He kept stretching out and, yes ma'am.

Counsel:

Okay. The bus stopped at some point, right?

Witness:

Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And, as far as you know, you weren't able to get in touch with that lead 223 vehicle,
correct?

012721
DOD 14378
Witness:
That is above my rank ma'am.

Counsel:
The signal for problems on the bus is putting on the hazards and pulling over, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that signal applies if there's a mechanical problem, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And it also applies if there's a problem on the bus with controlling EPWs?

Witness:
To the best of my knowledge, yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. So same signal for both...

Witness:
Universal ma'am.

Counsel: kay. The bus stopped and you andillitot off the bus to pull security, correct?
p&. 1 / Witness:
6f6j-q iVx":1 The bus stopped. Sergeant411.11grgralist up to the vehicle and knocked on the door. Somebody yelled out and told them it was just an air hose break. That was the last I saw them and that's whaling/6nd I hopped off the bus and pulled side security.
Counsel:
Okay. You didn't searigat.et on the bus, right?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
And you guys actually got off the bus and pulled security outside the bus, right?

012722
DOD 14379
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: (4) -11 ())
As you were...they said...I'm sorry, Sergean4111111said everything's okay; let's go?

Witness:
When we got further along, yes ma'am. He had said the driver fixed it; everything's
good, let's go. We collapsed towards the door. At that time there was a bunch of people
speaking, just talking. Sergean d Sergeant McKenzie being one of them, just
talking right by the door. We hopp on the bus. We got ready to leave.

(LW (77)C0 -5—
Counsel:
So you talked to Sergeant McKenzie while the bus was stopped, right?

Witness:
Yes. We just had chit-chat over basic stuff.

Counsel:
He appeared to be calm?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Wasn't upset about anything?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Basically, he: askedyou what's the setup like in there, right?

'1' • Witness: He had asked that...he had actually come on tiff bus for a couple...like a minute or two. He wanted to see the setup and asked how it was setup, that kind of thing. If there were any problems. I gave him the breakdown of what was going on and then he hopped off the bus.
Counsel:
He also asked you how things were had been going on the bus, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: And you told him that some of the EPWs weren't listening to you guys.

012723
Witness: Yes ma'am. I told him that some were talking; some were looking around and then we had the Fedahyeen who would stretch his legs, and the Captain lookin at Sergeant
that was corrected by somebody ; either Sergean r Sergeant
66i0 7). (7i
Counsel: ,6) Sj0 JO] And you talked to Master Sergeant M& that time?
4
Witness:
I talked to Master Sergean efore I got on the bus ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. So she never got on the bus?

Witness:
As far as my recollection, no ma'am.

Counsel:
How did she appear?

Witness:
Normal, collected, happy, no problems ma'am.

Counsel:
She upset?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel: -
Now your job when the bus stopped at Camp Bucca was then to unload, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And again, when you're unloading, you're the only soldier on the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
The first person that left the bus was that Major that was sitting in the front with the
crutches, right?

012724
DOD 14381
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Cotipseh., °The one that wasn't listening prior?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: You told him to get up?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And he wouldn't get up, would he?
Witness: No ma'am.
Counsel: Then you gave him a hand signal to get up?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Lifted your arms up and said get up?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And he still wouldn't move, right?
Witness: No ma'am.
Counsel: So you actually had to physically pick him up, correct? • -
Witness: Yes ma'am.
01272-5
DOD 14382

Counsel:
And he wasn't cooperating with you as you were picking him up, was he?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Basically refused to move, even as you were trying to carry him, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:

And you had to carry him all the way down the aisle, right?

Witness:

To the front of the door, yes ma'am.

Counsel:

Did you have to pull any other EPW up?

Witness:

As I said before, with you guys, I think if any, there was one, if any.

Counsel:

Did you push any EPW down the aisle of the bus?

Witness:

No ma'am. I did not forcibly push anybody down that aisle, ma'am.

Counsel:

Did you run with any of the EPWs down the aisle. f the bus?

Witness:
No ma'am. No ma'am. I stomped my feet to make it...I don't know the proper
wording...but I stomped my feet to intimidate them, ma'am.

Counsel:

Okay. But you didn't push them from behind to get them to move?

Witness:
I had my hand on one of...two of them on their back and I did not forcibly push, but I
had my hands so that they would not come back towards me ma'am.

Counsel:
Now as you're unloading, the curtains on the bus are closed, correct?

01 2726
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you had two responsibilities at that time, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You had to unload the EPWs...?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then you had to make sure that the bus was still secure in the back, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Because you were the only soldier left on the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You were-focused on the bus, and what you needed.to .do on the bus, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you said you stuck your head out the front door once, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you couldn't see what was going on?

012727

DOD 14384
Witness: I saw, as I said, I looked towards the rear of the bus...I saw what appeared to be two U.S. male soldiers on the ground with one male EPW, but there was a light set that blinded my vision, also. I could make out the bodies of the soldiers because of the uniform, and the other was a prisoner because of the clothing he was wearing. But as for who, what, when and where, they were so far towards the rear of the bus...how far I was already extended out of the bus, I could not see anymore.
Counsel:
Okay. So you couldn't tell who it was?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
And you couldn't tell what they were doing?

Witness: No ma'am.
Oh"-(7t)
Counsel:
And you looked out that same door that Sergeant vas standing at, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. Instead of peering out of the bus like I did, he was right below my view.

Counsel:
Now once all the EPWs were unloaded, you went back and searched the bus, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.: -From-front to rear,.

Counsel:
And you found some medical tape, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. I found what appeared to be one long enouh role to...medical tape is what
we use to secure the prisoners. Or I should say the 744 , they didn't have flexi-cuffs. I
found a long enough piece that should have been on one EPW, ma'am.

Counsel:
So you found a broken restraint on the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

012728
Counsel:
Now, afterwards, you said you spoke to SergeanIal. right?

Witness:
This was after the whole thing. We were back in our living area, yes ma'am.

Counsel:
That night?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

U615-0-g)
Counsel:
You spoke with Sergeant%Me and you stated that she said that she kicked
someone in the balls, rights?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And your response to her was, hey I kneed somebody too correct?

-• IL Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel:
You told her a lie.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
To make yourself look tough, right?

Counsel:
And you thought that she was telling you a lie?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
For the same reason, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

012729
DOD 14386
Counsel:
Kind of make herself look tough?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You knew SergeantlialliPbefore the twelfth of May, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And kicking someone in the balls didn't seem like something she would be capable of
doing, did it?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Cause she's quiet?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Kind of timid?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

(6xo-s-Ja(e)-_-c--
Counsel:
And that was the end of your conversation with Sergean

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
That was it? Then you left to go find your wife?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Now a couple days after this, you talked to CID, right?

0 12730
DOD 14387
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You gave them a statement?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then they moved you, the Command moved you down to Camp Arifjan, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. I don't know the time frame, but it was pretty much a little while after that
ma'am.

Counsel:

So you gave your statement and then you were moved down to Arifjan?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. We were still at Bucca for a little while and then they started moving us.

Counsel:

Can you remember about how long you up at Bucca in between?

Witness:

I would say a month, doing details and other things.

Counsel:

All right, and then after that they moved you down to Ari fj an?
Witness:
To the best of my recollection, yes ma'am.

Counsel:

And your wife stayed up at Camp Bucca?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Now she called you from Camp Bucca, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. We talked on a cell phone which cost a lot.

012731
Counsel:
She called you cause she had gone to talk to CID, right?

Witness:
I had asked her actually, while I was at Arifjan, I had asked her to go and...I wanted to
add to my statement. She went to see CID and she had called me up. Pretty much a few
times, but one day in particular, yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. Before you left Arifjan, you told your wife, I didn't see anything and I didn't do
anything wrong, right?

Witness:
Before I left Arifjan, I told her that I didn't see anything and I didn't do anything wrong.
That's right ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. And after she talked to CID, she called you and said, hey they're telling me that
you were involved.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
She was pretty upset, wasn't she?

Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel:
It's something that you guys discussed and argued about on the phone, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And she told you, what you need to do now is go back and think about all the details of
what happened.

Witness:
She asked to go over in my mind the incident the day of, and there after, and anything I
can come up with I should think about it.

Counsel: To see if there were any new details that you remember?

012732
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Then after that, you talked to Majo t?
Witness: Yes ma'am. 0*-z icze)--e
Com Majo d Colonel sat in as well?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And then that's when you did that second sworn statement, right?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Now it's your understanding that you have immunity from prosecution, right?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And it's your understanding that you can't be prosecuted for anything that you might have done on the bus, right?
Witness: • -I didn't do anything on the bus, but yes ma'am.
Counsel: Okay. Or if you told CID something that was incomplete or untruthful, you can't be prosecuted for that either, right?
Witness: At both times when I made a statement, at that point when I made a statement, I was truthful to the whole point and extent, but yes ma'am.
Counsel: Okay, except that you left out some of the details the first time?
012733
DOD 14390

Witness:
Ma'am I was flustered and I was getting...I was completely truthful with what I can
remember at the time. Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. That's my question. You went back, and later, there were new details.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

••¦
Counsel:
Thank you Specialis1111111-Vc--it; (7e.)-

Questions by the defense counsel: CPT griliwitto-Z jot' -2-'7-1/
Counse4 gq; 9tC)
Specialist 111111.Want to talk to ou a little bit about this conversation that you say
you had w Master Sergeant You said you were sitting in the truck when she
apit-oachei you?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you said that she advised you that you aught to get an attorney?

Witness:
As many others, yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay.. You said many others had already told you aught to get an attorney?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
That was other members of your Command?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you took that as her taking care of you?

Witness: Yes ma'am.

012734
Counsel:
You didn't see that as any sort of coercion or anything, just that she was telling you that
you ought to get an attorney?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then, you said that you discussed whether or not you had seen anything, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you told her you had not seen anything, correct?

Witness: sf'
That's right ma'am.

Counsel:
And that's what you had already told CID, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that's what you had already told your wife, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that was end of the conversation, correct?

Witness:
That's right ma'am.

Counsel:
And throughout that entire conversation, you just thought ofthis as st a normal,
everyday conversation you would have with Master Sergeant

(7)e)
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Didn't take it as any sort of event, didn't feel coerced in any manner, correct?
012735
DOD 14392
Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Didn't say anything different as a result of this conversation?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Now you said she winked at you?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You said that you thought that was part of her personality, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Normal thing you would see Master Sergeant t (6,0)-)(7)e} --5

?
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Didn't take it as any sort of coercion on her part?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Thank you Specialis

Questions by the defense counsel: Mairiffill (44" Z /C C } 2--
.(Q V;(7 -1 Counsel: Speciali hen you went to the tent to ask...you thootiirlriad some information peop e might like to know and you saw Speciali ect?
Witness: 404 /MO -4 Yes ma'am.
012736
Counsel:
And you told them you had some information about CID and what they were doing with
the investigation?

Witness:
It was a rumor ma'am.

Counsel:
A rumor, okay. And you said to us that you like rumors and you passed them along to
other people.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
I have no further questions.

Questions by the defense counsel: CP11111111 (aj-z ;(7xc-) _ Counsel: fiffik (ocy q,6t-i-14-
Specialist ou testified about the Fedahyeen Major who...when he was on the
bus and you were getting ready to unload him, he refused to get up?

Witness: 471,00.4toy,irt
Yes ma'am, or yes sir, I mean. My apologies sir.

Counsel:
And then you said that you hoped there was at least one other EPW that you kind of had
to push along, or you kind of had to forcefully had to move along through the aisle
because he wouldn't move.

Witness: - • ,•••:: Yes sir. There was a few that night that just didn't want to move, sir.
Counsel:
Okay. So there was •rem actually a number of EPWs, before they even got off the
bus, they were kind of like dad weight?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Okay. Thank you Specialist.

012737

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the trial counsel: MAJ iimap,CSA) - z ; (.7)g) —

Counsel:.C72)-
Specialist , the first prisoner that, you say, didn't want to move, was he on
crutches?

Witness:
Yes sir. He had crutches.

Counsel:
Okay. Did you know why he was on crutches?

Witness:
No sir. I don't know the extent of why he had the crutches.

Counsel:
At the end of the mission, you said you searched the bus?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Okay, and found some medical tape. Did you search the bus prior to letting the prisoners
board?

Witness:
Yes sir. It was searched prior to, and the only thing we found was a lot of water bottles
and leftover MREs.

Counsel:
Okay. A lot of trash on the ground?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Okay. Did you clean up all the trash?

Witness:
No sir. We didn't have trash bags available.

Counsel: Okay. So you just left all this trash?

012738
Witness: Yes sir.
Counsel:
p
That's all I have sir.
I/O: IP 4!!' Anything else?
Defense counsel: No, sir.
Questions by the Investigating Officer: LTC
.(4) -z.-z
I/O:
Specialis when the bus ulle off to the side of the road, midway back to Camp
Bucca, you said tha ergean and Specialistme up to the bus, is that
correct?

J.oe)-
Witness:
Yes sir.

I/O:
And you said that they asked what was happening?

Witness:
Yes sir. They were the rear security vehicle at the time, sir.

I/O:
Okay. And then who responded back to them?

Witness:
I don't know it was a male voice over the top of my head so I would assume it was either
Sergeant r Sergeant

Jfai-)I/O: And then that voice said that everything is okay?
Witness:
It's just an air hose that broke.

I/O:
And then at that point, they left?

0 1.?.7 3 9

Witness:
We were in the transition of doing a bunch of things at the time, so I didn't see them from
that point on.

I/O:
Where were you exactly on the bus?

Witness:
I was in the front of the bus and I was then asked to pull side security. So they asked me

to hop off with my M-16 and pull security on the side of the bus.
I/O: You were in the front of the bus doing what?
Witness: I was just, I was a passenger at the time when this air hose broke. Sergean Sergeanlalliere securityAthe time. with their shot d J)-(/; 7(C) -s'
I/O: They were behind you, I guess?
Witness: Yes sir.
I/O: Okay. And then you went out and pulled security at that point?
Witness: Yes sir.
I/O: And where were you on the outside of the bus when you pulled security?
Witness: I was between the front tire and the first cargo compartment.
I/O:

So if anybody had come on the bus after that point, you would have seen them or no?

Witness:
No sir. My vision was towards the desert in case anything would pop up, sir.

I/O:
So your not really sure if anybody came on the bus after that point or not?

012740

DOD 14397
Witness:
No sir. I couldn't tell you if anybody came on between that point in time, no sir.

I/O:
How long was that?

Witness:
Ten minutes sir.

I/O:
Okay. Who called you back in?

_9

M4)— Vi aXC)
Witness:
Sergeaidirlikad screamed out, he had voiced out through the door that everything
was all ri t, time to board up to go.

I/O: f
Anybody gay anything to you when you came back on the bus?

Witness:
I'm not understanding sir.

I/O:
Did anybody, did any of the other MPs say anything to you when you came back on the
bus?

Witness:
No sir. There was two comments made during the trip, but not when we got back on the
bus sir.

I/O:
So you just got back on the bus and took off and continued the mission?

Witness:
Yes sir.

I/O:
Okay. Since the twelfth of May, have you had any conversations or discussions with
anybody from the 223 RD MP Company?

Witness:
No sir.

I/O:
Did you aware...were you aware that they were even on the ground that night?

012741
DOD 14398
Witness:
Yes sir. Two of them were on the bus and then the lead vehicle was theirs.

I/O:
And you knew them to be members of the 223 RD?

Witness:
There was an E-6, female E-4 gunner, an E-4 driver and then two Sergeants on the bus, as
far as my recollection sir.

I/O: (64)-Z (7, ) Z-
When CP d you about this conversation, or this brief conversation, I

guess you had wi aster Sergeant as it typical for her to come up to you and
advise you to tie' t an attorney? (6/6)-S,' W.)
Witness:

No sir. There had not been any incidents requiring such a talk.

I/O:
Is it part of her personality to wink at you?

Witness:
Yes sir. She's the kind of...kind of her personality. She always winks at the end of some
of her conversations towards me. It's just her personality. Her persona. It's part of her.

I/O:
Witness:
So she came up to you and advised you to get an attorney and then winked at you?

Witness:
Yes sir. Basically, essentially part of it, yes sir. The end of her conversation she just
winked at us and thatwas the end of the conversation. I didn't take it as anything other
than that.

I/O:
Anybody have any further questions?

Questions by the trial counsel: MAJ 0111111111a.(6) -2) (7)Cc1 -
Counsel: timoi(L) (c) -s (7) (C) -s--
That conversation with Master Sergean idn't she also say you didn't see
anything, right?

Witness:
Yes sir. I said that prior to...

012742

Counsel:
I just wanted to clear that up. Thank you Specialist.

I/O:
Any further questions? Specialist ank you for your testimony

[The witness was duly warned, dismissed and withdrew from the room.]
I/O:
Is that the end of the live witnesses we have?

Counsel:
The live ones, yes. •

I
I/O:
Okay.

Counsel:
Then we have a CID agent who...I thought Ohio...are you sure it's eight hours?

I/O: (64)4)(7.6)
Special Agent - hello can you hear me?

Witness:
Yes,yes.
II

I/O: 4 (44) j ft) 2
Special Agent this is Lieutenant Colone)411111111P. I'm calling from Camp Doha
Kuwait. We're in the middle of the Article 32 hearing that I believe you were contacted
about previously. We have the Government and Defense counsel here. If you're
prepared, we'd like to go ahead and interview you and conduct that part of the hearing?

Witness:
I'm ready sir.

I/O: 0))(0—Z ; (7)CC) -Z-
Okay.
Who we have here is MajoralliMakwho's the counsel for the Government.
Then we have Captai Majoiell.CaptairINIIIIII and Captain

dieggiallthere as the counse or the accused. Apd I believe what we'll do is start with the Government counsel who will swear you in over the connection here, and then we'll begin the questioning here, okay?
Witness:
All right sir.

012743
DIRECT EXAMINATION

(kfY-A;(7-.)-1
Special Agen.U.S. Army, was called as a witness for the Government, was sworn and testified as follaws:
Questions by the trial counsel: MAJAMINIC61Q -0 i(7)C()
Counstilip
Agen could you give your full name for the record, please?
411111 (6,61) ) (7)()"-1 --
Counsel:

And your unit of assignment?

Witness:
44TH MP Detachment, CID.

Counsel:
And where is that unit currently stationed?

Witness:
I'm stationed with the forward element of that unit in Camp Bucca, which is located in
Umm Qasr, Iraq.

Counsel:
Okay. Thank you. Special Agent. I've no questions for you, if you please answer any
questions that defense counsel pose.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the defense counsel: CP 41111111111
Counsel: (.6)--/ "(7.k) -/ P-2-(71P Special Agent
Agenhis is Captait410.1.-
I/O:
Can you hear him?

Witness:
I heard this is CaptaiaIIIIP heard the introduction.
I/0: Okay.
012744
DOD 14401

a,to)-v,(-NeJ-5z

Counsel:
Special Agent0157 had previously interviewed Specialistapbfore you
interviewed him in this case, fs that Correct?
Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And that was involving another allegation by an EPW that he'd been abused, correct?

Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:

And the EPW was a minor?

Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And it turned out that that EPW had actually been injuring himself, correct?

Witness:
Yes that is correct.

0A)-(60)(b -Y
Counsel:
But what he actually claimed is that Specialiiniad twisted his already injured arm,
correct?

Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And then you helped conduct the investigation in this case, correct?

Witness: V
That is correct.

Counsel:
And you did an interview, again, with Specialistillit ;IS,=) j )Cil —

Witness:
That is correct.

012745
' Lfbri,14

C'J )(.)' t
Counsel:
And since the time of that first investigation, there have been several EPWs who have
alleged abuse by Speciali correct?

Witness:
No, I cannot say with a high percent of certainty.

Counsel:
I'm sorry, can you repeat that answer?

Witness:
I was not aware of any other EPWs which alleged abuse against Speciali

Counsel:
Okay. So you don't remember...do you remember having a conversation with myself
and CaptaillMilIP few weeks back?
,(7X1- e

Witness:
Yes I do.

Counsel:
Okay. Do you remember at that time saying that EPWs, they sort of got a hold of
pecialistAMIname and sort of past it around, and everyone said they got abused by
Specialist

A'
Witness:
I remember saying that they alleged abuse against a soldier by the e ofillillbie.
Whether or not they were directed towards, against Specialistrget his full
name, I cannot say. I do not know if they were directed...if there were any allegations
directed, specifically towards Specialijor towards a soldier name/

Counsel:
Okay. But it is the case that EPWs were claiming that they were abused by a soldier
namedialliorrect?

Witness:
I've been told that have been alleging anything and everything against a soldier named

1111111111L-
Counsel:
Okay. Thank you Agen11111Agent111111 don't have anymore questions for you.

I/O:
Majoillats going to ask now.

012746
Counsel: CP i• -jl-zte)J I'm sorry. I did forget :to aslc you one other question. Special Agent 1111All of
those allegations against some soldier named ll those allegations were ultimately
unfounded, correct? ) -171 / (j)0.) -11
Witness:

Yes. The allegations with the minor were unfounded, that is correct.

Counsel:
Okay. And then all of the subsequent allegations by all the EPWs claiming that some
soldier named. !bused them, all of those allegations were also unfounded, correct?

Cb.,G) -; (7)) -4
Witness:
To my knowledge, yes sir that's correct.

Counsel:
Okay. I don't have any more questions for you.

Questions by the defense counsel: MAJ
A(6)-z,(VJ -z
-1;(t),-/.
Counsel:
Special Agrhis is Major an you hear me?
Witness: IP-Yes I can ma'am.
Counsel: Okay. Sticking with the line of questioning o ou did Interview a Specialist n flus particular case, correct?,
4-)g) --")(7)
Witness:
That is correct.

And you t o sworn statement from him on May sixteenth, according to your IARR?

Witness:
That is correct.

0)g)-,(-7-1 J--y
Counsel:
Avtioip
And you were the person who did the questioning 111111rixecialistallPid did the Q and A on the question on his statement?
Witness: That is correct.
012747

Counsel: At this t e I would like to lave this admitted into evidence. Just a moment Special Age r m moving to admit .sworn statement into evidence. r
[The sworn statement was marked as Exhibit 12 without objection.]
Counsel:
Without objection.

Counsel:
Okay, without objection. It's marked as exhibit twelve and I'm going to leave it with the
IO. I have no furthe*questions, but another defense may. Please hold on.

Questions by the defense counsel: CNN,(6,(6) - (7,Cei
Counsel: ELLF /-*/ ) 7e) —2-
Special Ager his is Captaii one of the defense counsels in the case.
Can you hear me okay?

Witness:
Yes I can.

Counsel: (h6) -Y) (i)ti
Agent on the sixteenth of May, did you do an interview with a Lieutenant Colonel

Witness:
Yes. That is correct.

T Counsel; And he told you that he was present during the off-loading of the EPWs on the bus on the twelfth of May, correct?
Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And he related to you that he did see any soldiers striking EPWs, correct?

Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And

And he told you that the soldiers were complaining to him that the EPWs were being
combative and resisting, correct?

012748
DOD 14405
Witness:
If it is in my AAR, the details are in there.

•• i• Counsel: Thank you Agen .(--44) -/ (7)e-J /
UO:
Captaining.? (b)) - 2 /(-7))-Z

Defense counsel: CPT
No, sir.

Majo4111111110.„1,,
No, sir p
I/O: (4)-
I don't have any qitestions. AgentillipIADpreciate your time very much. I hope this
wasn't too much of an inconvenience for you; I hope everything's okay back home. And
please don't, if you have an opportunity, don't discuss your testimony with any other
witnesses or potential witnesses. And if we need anything, we will try and get back a
hold of you.

Witness:
Thank you sir. I can be reached at this number.

I/0:
All right. Thank you very much. Goodbye.

[The witness was duly warned, dismissed and ended his telephonic interview.] [The Article 32 hearing recessed at 1705 hours 01 September 2003.]
012749

Doc_nid: 
3596
Doc_type_num: 
734