Article 32 Proceedings re: Transcript of Hearing in the Matter of Specialist Timothy F. Canjar

[')-'1; 6(1-)(~)-~
[The Article 32 PlIlr1nOrhP,('nnvened at 1300 hours 02 September 2003.]
U.S. Army National Guard, was called as a witness for the Government, was sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION () ( ) /.)
b , -1. i b 7 '-c -2
Questions by the trial counsel: MAJ~
Counsel:
You are SPC

Witness: Yes.

Counsel:
Ofthe 223rd MP Company?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And the 223rd is currently stationed at Camp Bucca, Iraq. Is that correct?

Witness:
Yes.
Counsel: ~~(6)-~i bl~') {el-1
Okay, SPC~oyou remember the events ofthe lth ofMay ofthis year?

Witness:
Yes I do.

Counsel:
What was your unit's mission on that day?

Witness:
On that day our mission was to go up to Talil, with 320th, and help train them on
escorting EPW's.

Counsel:
Who was with you from your unit? Qs~

:Si~"SGT__GT~dSPC__
Counsel: And do you remember how many vehicles that you took up on the mission?

C13460
Witness:
We took four vehicles.

Counsel:
What type ofvehicles were they?

Witness:
There was one upper annored humvee, which was ours, a bus, and I believe both oftheir
humvee's were soft tops.

Counsel: '
Which vehicle were you in?

Witness:
I was in the lead vehicle.

Counsel:
And your position in the vehicle?

Witness:
Gunner.

Counsel:
So you weren't on the bus?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
I'm going to go ahead and fast forward to the--your return to Camp Bucca. Could you
descnbe for me the unloading process ofthe EPWs once you reached Camp Bucca?

Witness:
Once we get to Camp Bucca we have all the prisoners down-loaded and they're handed
offto whoever's helping down-load them. And they're set-up in groups offive and
they're taken escorted down to the search area.

Counsel:
What was your job during the unloading process?

Witness:
I helped unload and take them to the first area we set-up and I also escorted them to the
search area. .

C13461

Counsel:
Were you on the bus at any point?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
So just tell me what did you do exactly?

Witness:
I helped escort them from the bus to the search area.

Counsel:
Was anyone else from the 223rd helping escort the EPWs?

Witness:
Not to the search area.

Counsel:
Who was helping you escort these EPW s?

Witness:
I know there were members ofthe 320th and I believe some people from the in processing
station as well.

Counsel:
Do you remember when the first EPW came offthe bus?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Was there anything unusual about that EPW?

Witness:
He was on crutches, he was a heavy guy, I'm not sure what else you're asking for.

Counsel:
What happened when he came offthe bus?

Witness:
When he came offthe bus he sat at the bottom ofthe stairs and he was speaking in
Arabic, and the interpreter was telling us that he needed help getting offthe bus that he
could not walk, and everybody kept yelling "get up! get up! let's go!" and nobody
seemed to want to help him.

C13462

DOD 15120
Counsel:
Who was yelling at him?

Witness:
Everybody--people that were around the bus.

Counsel:
Do you remember who was in that group that was in that group that was helping to --as
this POW was being taken offthe bus?

Witness:
I can't recall who all was there, pretty much it was the first EPW offthe bus pretty much
everybody was there, but I can't recall exactly who was where.

Counsel:
Did you--so he finally got up?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Did he get up under his own power?

Witness:
How he got up I do not remember, but when he got up he...first there were two people
beside him on each side ofhim, I don't know who it was, but then they kinda just let him
walk on his own with the interpreter to the initial staging area before we walked the five
ofthem.

Counsel:
And did at that point what role did you play in the escort?

Witness:
I was just kinda sitting back watching.

Counsel:
Did you see what happened next?

Witness:
After the five were lined up there was five prisoners lined up after that they began to
walk them, I'm not sure exactly who walked with them, but as they started walking down
to lane to the search area I saw the MSG come up from their right side and strike the first
prisoner who was on the crutches and knock him down on the ground.

Counsel:
Okay, who was this MSG?

C13463

Witness: _ L/ ",) .. ~. b{-:,\t) ....
This woman right here (pointing to MSG v.Je i J C -~
Counsel:
When you say she, struck this EPW, what do you mean by struck?

Witness:
She ran up from behind him and he fell forward onto the ground.

Counsel:

How did she strike him?

Witness:
I don't know whether it was with fist or pushing I just know she came up and struck him
and he fell down I don't know exactly how.

Counsel:

How did he land?

Witness:

He landed onto the ground just like head first on the ground.

Counsel:

What happened after he was down on the ground?

Witness:
After he was on the ground, she began punching and kicking him, and then her and
another male--.

CoUnsel:

Hold on a second--she began, who is she?

Witness:

The MSG.

Counsel:

And then what?

Witness:
And then after that her as well as another male, I don't know who it was, grabbed him
from beneath his armpits and drug him to the searching area.

Counsel:
Would you recognize the individual that grabbed him by the armpits and drug him off!

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
Did you hear any noise coming from this EPW?

Witness:
There was screams coming from many EPWs.

Counsel:
How about that the first EPW in particular?

Witness:
When he was knocked down, yes.

Counsel:
What kind ofscream was it?

Witness:
I mean they were just high-pitched wails from him.

Counsel:
You were in a position to see them walk away?

Witness:
Right

Counsel:
Did you--did he have his crutches at that point?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
Did he appear to be resisting?

Witness:
Not at all.

Counsel:
Did he look like he was fighting them?

Witness:
No.

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DOD 15123
Counsel:
Did it look to you as ifhe was under the control ofthe two escorts?

Witness:
Not at all, are you asking did he control them?

Counsel:
No, I'm the other thing too. Did it look like the two escorts were in control ofthe EPW?

Witness:
Oh, yes.

Counsel:
And later on after that was over, did you help move the EPW referred to as the rapist?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Who escorted him?
Witness:SGT_andl. \orb)~',U ~ (lVC) ­~ .~

Counsel:
Were his hands bound?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And what happened while you were escorting this EPW?

Witness: ~~
When he came offthe bus the MSG Said, "I think the f~ales need to take care ofhim
for what he's done" and he was handed offto SG~and1. She was on his left
side and 1 was on his right side and we walked him to the initial place where we stage
them before we take them ~ea,and MSG struck him from behind and he
was knocked out ofSGT~d1 hands onto the ground face first.

Counsel: ~..)
Did you see how she struck him?

Witness:
I did not she was behind us.

C13466

DOD 15124
Counsel:
So what happened as you were escorting that EPW?

Witness:
We just had to hold his arms and we walked with him, and he was knocked out ofour
hands. And that's when she began kicking him in the groin from behind.

Counsel:
How did he fall?

Witness:
He fell head first onto his knees.

Counsel:
And then what happened next?

Witness:

She began kicking him in the groin from behind.

Counsel:

How many times did she kick him?

Witness:

Probably about five to seven times.

Counsel:

How hard did she kick him?

Witness:

Pretty forcefully.

Counsel: ;'.
And then after she kicked him in the groin, what happened next?

Witness:
He kinda fell over onto his right side trying to block it with his kinda--separate--put his
legs together and that's when she started kicking him in his stomach and in his face.

Counsel:
Did the EPW make any noise?

Witness:
He yelled out. He kept yelling out and I heard him yelling ''Nothing .. nothing" I don't
know what he meant by that, but I heard him yelling that.

013467

Counsel: As you and S escorting that EPW was he resisting?
Witness: Not at all.
Counsel: When he was shoved out ofyour arms was he resisting?
Witness: No.
Counsel: Was he fighting you?
Witness: No.
Counsel: Was he complying with what you'd told him?
Witness: Yes.
Counsel: Then the next EPW that you were escorting, could you tell me about that?
Witness: I can't recall which one was the next one that I escorted.
Counsel: Did you see-any other instances where an EPW was hit or struck?
Witness: Yes.
Counsel: Could you tell me about that please?
Witness: There were various ones when we would be escorting them down the search area they were being kicked, thrown on the ground, and everything.
Counsel: Now, you say various ones, could you pick one in particular out and describe what happened to him?
013468
DOD 15126

Witness:
Not really in particular, I mean there were a lot ofthem that this occurred to. '

Counsel:
Did you see one that was dressed unusually?

Witness:
Not really unusually.

Counsel:
How about one that their pants had fallen down?

Witness:

Yes I did.
Counsel:

Let's talk about him for a little bit. What did you see happen to him?

Witness:
He was, I believe, behind the guy--the supposed rapist guy, and he had been thrown down
on the ground and the--

Counsel:

Okay, how did he make it down on the ground?

Witness:
I believe he was thrown down on the ground. The short specialist was sitting on top of
him.

Counsel:
Did you ,actually see him. throw him to the ground?

Witness:
No I did not.

Counsel:
But somebody was sitting on top ofhim?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Is that individual sitting here with us today?

C13469
DOD 15127
Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Could you point him out to us please?

Witness:
The specialist right here (pointing to SPC Canjar)

Counsel:
After the specialist was sitting on his back did you see anything else happen with this
EPW?

Witness:
Not that particular one.

Counsel:
Did you see any other EPWs that were thrown to the ground?

Witness:
There were many EPW s that were thrown to the ground. There was one instance where
we had a line ofmedical EPWs lined up. There was a man with one arm, there were, I
believe, one ofthem had a sling on his arm, there was crutches, and then the last guy in
the group he wasn't medical I believe he was a teacher that was a supposed interpreter.
And when they came off the bus the MSG was asking, "whose a problem, are they a
problem? Are they a problem?" and then they were like--no I take that back the MSG
didn't say that, someone said that I don't remember who said that, but she said, ''they're
all here aren't they, well then they're a problem". And then that is when the tall SSG
began picking them up off their feet and throwing them down on the ground.

Counsel:
Would you recognizethat.SSG?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Is he in the room here today?

Witness:
Yes he is.

Counsel:
Would you point him out for us please?

• '1_ ..... ,,, _ ........ ¥--"

013470

DOD 15128
[(,)-)i kL'Jr){C)-5

Witness:~
It's SSG over there (pointing to him)

Counsel:
You say, he threw that EPW to the ground?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
You saw that happen?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Did that EPW, at the time, appear to be resisting?

Witness:
Not at all.

Counsel:
How about fighting?

Witness:
No, the first one he did it to had only one ann.

Counsel:
What happened to him when he was, after he was thrown to the ground?

Witness:
He just laid there.. ­
••":... ·P ......
Counsel:
Did you see any other EPWs that were thrown to the ground?

Witness:
Yes, particularly all the EPWs in that line, the medical and the teacher, and it was five of
them.

Counsel:
Did you recall an EPW that being down on the ground who was being held on the
ground?

Witness:
Besides the one that was sat on top of?

C13471

DOD 15129
Counsel:
Yes.

Witness:
No Idonot.

Counsel:
I'm going to go back to the EPW that was called the rapist. What exactly happened with
him again?

~{')-S ,. t (~) {G)-l
Witness: / OJ l '" .,
When he was taken offthe bus he was handed to SOT ~dI and we walked
him to the initial area where we set him down. And when we got there he was struck
from behind, by the MSa, and he was knocked down head first onto his knees. And the
MSa began kicking him in his groin from behind and he fell over onto his side and she
began kicking him in his stomach and in his face. And then after that SOT
and I put him into the prone position, except the only difference was his hands were
bound beneath him, so we could not spread his hands apart like we were trained to do.
And that's when the SPC and the SSG grabbed his ankles and the Msa had her foot on
his head and they were all saying, "It's your shot .. .It's your shot. .. Go ahead"

Counsel:
Let's back up for a second, he's down on the ground and where was the MSG?

Witness:
MSG was at his head.

Counsel:
What was she doing at his head?

Witness:· "-'-.
At that particular time she just had her foot on his head.

Counsel:
And then, who else was there?

Witness: ~~~~
SPC Canjar, and SS~

Counsel:
And what were they doing?

sitting on top ofthe other EPW, the second one in the row, and SSG was just over there. I guess he had walked up when it was occurring.
013472
Counsel:
And then,--were they holding on to his legs?

Witness:
They held on to his ankles.

Counsel:
And so each one had a hold ofone ankle?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:

How were his legs arranged at that point?

Witness:
At that point they were spread apart.

Counsel:

And where was his face?

Witness:

His face was in the ground.

Counsel:

And what happened when his legs were spread apart?

Witness:
When his legs were spread apart and they had a hold ofhis ankles they kept saying, "It's
your shot--It's your shot. Go ahead"

Counsel:

Who was saying that?

Witness: ~{")-6"; \'(1-){C)-S-
The MSG, SPC Canjar, and SS~

Counsel:

And they were saying, "It's your shot',?

Witness:
Yes, and they were looking at SGT_and1.

C13473"
DOD 15131
Counsel:
And what happened then?

. ~Ll) ,{; b(~)l~)-c;
Wltn~
SOT_looked over at me and I just kinda stepped back, like I don't want to
have any part in it. And she was looking around real nervous biting her lip like she knew
that she didn't want to do it, and she just--they kept urging her on and she did it anyway.

Counsel:
She did what?

Witness:
She kicked him in his groin.

Counsel:
How many times did she kick him?

Witness:
That I saw, she probably only kicked him three to five times, I walked away.

Counsel:
How hard were the kicks?

Witness:
They were pretty forceful, probably not as hard as she could've, but she kicked him
pretty good.

Counsel: How did that EPW finally make it to the holding area? l ) \ l )I )bl' .~." '1 l' -'1
Witness: / -I b(0-5"; k{1j(e;-s-
After I had walked away and walked over to SP~dSGT~eback. ' ..
and got me and we picked him up and walked him to the search area together.

Counsel:
While he was down on the ground did he make any noise?

Witness:
Yes he was screaming out.

Counsel:
And what would happen when he screamed?

Witness:
When he screamed she would kick him in his face each time, the MSG.

C13474
DOD 15132
VO: Could you say that again, I'm sorry?

Witness:
When he screamed the MSG would kick him in his face each time.

VO: After you picked him up?

Witness:
No, this was before we picked him up while he was still on the ground.

VO: After she kicked him in the groin, according to you?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And did anything happen as you were moving him over to the search area?

Witness:
Yes, there was someone walking behind us, I'm not sure e tly who it was 'cause they
were behind us, and they kept trying to trip the prisoner m behind and I just kept a
firmer grip on his arm and tried to walk faster. SGT tarted to kick him from
the side, but he never fell. I just kept trying to walk faster with the prisoner.

Counsel:
Did you hear anything as you were walking away with him?

Witness:
I don't recall.

Counsel:
After.you got to the searching area, I assume, you wentback to the bus? .

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel:
Did you hear anything as you were walking back to the bus?

~ "b(,l-f,-~(}){'\-5
back I heard SGT _ and the MSG were right behind me, and SGT said "I didn't get a good kick in the first time, but I got him good after that" and the MSG said, "I got a good cock shot in".
Counsel:
What did you see when you got back to the door ofthe bus?

013475

DOD 15133
Witness:
When I got back to the bus that was when the next group happened, with the guy with
one ann and the medical guys and the teacher that was the next time.
Counsel:
What happened to the next EPW offthe bus, that you saw?

Witness:

That was the ones that were lined up and the SSG was throwing them down on the
ground.

Counsel:
What do you mean throwing them on the ground?

Witness:
He was actually picking them up offtheir feet and throwing tern down--like a body slam.

Counsel:

How would they land?

Witness:

Generally like their whole body like face first into the ground.

Counsel:

And then what happened after they would land on the ground?

Witness:
They just lay there, sit there however they landed.

Counsel:

So, how many EPWs werein.thisgroup? ----=----. ,..-
Witness:
Five.
Counsel:
And each one ofthem got thrown?
Witness:
Yes.
Counsel:
How far away were you from this group of EPW s?

013476,

Witness:
Less than five feet.

Counsel:
Did they appear to be resisting?

Witness:
Not at all.

Counsel:
Were they fighting?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
Did they appear to be doing what they were told?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
With this group ofEPWs did you see any training going on?

h(C,}- i b('1)(C)-t'
Witness: I did notice was out of the ordinary of what we were taught on how he was throwing down to the ground. For one they weren't resisting, so there was no
for another we weren't taught like that. So I made a comment to SGT
I was lik~, "what is he a cop or something" I mean obviously I don't know how Co.PS are trained either, but I was just asking, and she said, "No, he's an Ultimate Fighter". She tried to explain it to me I had-kinda had-no clue what she was talking
-about.so. I just let it go. -..~.._.~"-.
Co.unsel:
Do you know what an Ultimate Fighter is?

Witness:
No. I don't.

Co.unsel:
Sir, I have no further questions.

~(b) -2r, k ('~J {c)-L-
After a recess the occurred for the record:
Sir, is there anything that we sho.uld know about that you can't continue
u ..., .... UJ'.....
or anything, sir?

C13477
DOD 15135
I/O: No, I'm just feeling a little queasy after lunch that's all.
CPT_Aside from the hearing, sir? 110: Yeah \ ~lL) -li \ (:r ) [c) -L . CPT~That's all I just wanted to inquire about, sir. That there's no problem.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the defense counsel: CPT_t;~
Counsel:
Witness: Yes.
Counsel: And your civilian occupation?
Witness: I work in a deli. Counsel: _/~(t)-t.t: 6{t)(c)-i And SGT_is your team leader, right?
Witness: Yes. Counsel: . _-.. (c; ~)_ --__ .._. ,.... __ And SSG_would be your squad leader?
Witness: Yes.
Counsel: Prior to this mission you guys had done about 20 escort missions?
Witness: Yes. counse~C?~) ...was with you on most ofthose missions, right?
C13478
DOD 15136

Witness:
That's correct.

Counsel:
And SG1WIIIII as well?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And on this mission your job was to be the gwmer for the lead vehicle?

Witness:
That's correct.

Counsel:
You were wearing DCUs?

Witness:
I was wearing my brown T-shirt, Flak vest, Kevlar, in the vehicle ofcourse, my DCU
pants, boots 9M, and I mount a SAW on top of the vehicle.

Counsel:
Were you wearing goggles?

Witness:
Goggles--I usually wear goggles, yes. I can't remember whether I was that day, but I'm
pretty sure I was.

Counsel:
Up in the turret you didn't have goggles on?

Witness:
Up in the turret I usually wear goggles, but other than driving I don't know ifIhad them
on.

Counsel:
That night you had your goggles on as well, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Not those glasses, right?

01347.9

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
You had the big birth control glasses that you were wearing?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
They're big and black?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
With a strap around them?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Were you wearing a desert do-rag that night?

Witness:
I very well may have been I'm not sure.

Counsel:
Now your duties as the gunner, your main duty is to face forward and cover the sectors of
fire that are in front ofthe convoy, right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Can you remember the configuration ofthe convoy that night?

Witness:
Yes, there was my vehicle, and behind us was a soft top humvee, then there was the bus,
and another humvee.

Counsel:
And that configuration was the same both going and coming, right?

Witness:
Yes.

C13430
Counsel:
Now the communications that you had that night ...everybody in the truck was wearing
the internal head-sets, correct?

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel:
And that allowed you to hear the SINCGARS communication that was going on on the
radio, right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And it also allowed you to talk to the three people that were in the truck with you,
correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Now on the ride up you had no communications from the bus, correct?

Witness:
That's right.

Counsel:
You didn't hear them come on to the SINGARS and talk to you guys, right?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
And on the way back you didn't hear anything from the bus either, correct?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
On the way back the bus stopped, right?

Witness:
Correct.

C13481
DOD 15139
Counsel:
And at that point the people in your vehicle had no idea what was wrong with the bus,
correct?

Witness:
That's right.

Counsel:
And your job, when the convoy stops, is to pull security towards the front, correct?

Witness:
That's correct. b(b)"~; b('J.){C-)-~
Counsel: / ~
And when the bus stopped SSG_and SGT_got out right?

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel:
And per your SOP when people exit the vehicles their jobs are to pull security, right?

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel: ( ~')
Now it was your understanding that SSG"was going to go to the bus, correct?

Witness:
Correct .

Counsel:. .L~)
And SGT was going to pull security?

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel: (~~
Did you see where SGT_pu1led security?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
Now when you arrived at Camp Bucca, there was no one from the in processing unit to
meet you, right?

C13482
Witness:
Correct.

Counsel:
So you guys waited for those in processing soldiers to arrive before you downloaded the
bus, correct?

Witness:
That's correct.

Counsel:
That night when you were escorting prisoners you were armed only with 9M, right?

Witness:
Right.

Counsel:
No M16s out there?

Witness:
NoM16s.

Counsel:
Why not?

Witness:
Because if you have your M16 with you the M16 is long and bulky and the prisoner
could possible, you know, ifthey got out of line could reach for your M16 and you
wouldn't be in very good a shape, obviously.

Counsel: .
So there were no M 16s out there on the escorts?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
So the in processing people weren't there--the set-up was a little bit different too correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
The distance to the search area was further, right?

C13483

DOD 15141
Witness:
Further, yes.

Counsel:
Now that first EPW off the bus was the major on crutches, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And he sat down on that top step and he refused to move, right?

Witness:
He sat down on the bottom step yes.

Counsel:
Okay, I'm sorry, he sat down on the bottom step and he wouldn't get up?

Witness:
Right.

Counsel:
And you're not sure how he eventually did get up, correct?

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel:
But he walked by himself with his crutches to the staging area, right?

Witness:
By himself with his crutches along next to the Kuwaiti interpreter, I assume he's Kuwaiti
I don't know his nationality for sure, but he works for the Americans.

Counsel:
He walked by himself?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And that kinda stood out in your mind as being odd, right?

Witness:
Right.

C13484
Counsel:
And that staging area is how far from the bus?

Witness:
Probably about approximately 15 feet away from the bus.

Counsel:
Fifteen feet away?

Witness:
Approximately.

Counsel:
And as he was moving the other escorts were standing in line, correct?

Witness:
Yes. ~(G)~; 1b)(c)..,

Counsel: __L-."
SO you were standing in line next to SGT_waitingfor your turn to escort a
prisoner, correct?

Witness:
Maybe not directly next to him, but around the same area, yes.

Counsel:
How far do you think you were from him?

Witness:
Within five feet.

Counsel: . "
After that the major sat down at the staging area four more EPWs followed, correct?

Witness:

Yes. h[,)-~.. ~ (1) {c)-t;
Counsel: /
And it was after that that you say that MSG _came up from behind the EPW on
crutches, right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
At that point all five EPWs were moving down towards to search area, right?

013485
Witness:
Right.

Counsel:
What were the escorts doing? The two escorts that were escorting the five?

Witness:
I don't recall what they were doing. b (b') ~'(j 6(1)lc) -~
Counsel: j'"' \.--
At the time that you saw that happening, did you hear SGT~sayanything?

Witness:
No.

Counsel: ~)
Did you hear SSG_sayanything?

Witness:
I wasn't listening or paying any attention to what people were saying.

Counsel:
Then that EPW was picked up underneath the arms, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel: .
And it was his feet that you saw dragging, right?

Witness: .
Right.

Counsel:
Now you talked about the major that you identified as the rapist, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And what you saw happen to the rapist also happened 15 feet from the bus, is that right?

Witness:
Yes.

C13486
\,((,)0; ~ll)(t)-f

Counsel: _ _ / "-
It was you and SOT_thatwere escorting the major, right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And while he was on the ground you claim that the MSG kicked him in the groin?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Five times?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Five times before he rolled over on his side?

Witness:
Approximately five times before he rolled over onto his side.

Counsel:
And then there was kicks in the face as well?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And you said that she had her foot on her head?

Witness:
Yes. b{t)-5"; h(~.){(.)w

Counsel: / . ~-
And it was at that point that you and SGT_kicked the EPW s legs apart to put
him in the prone?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
While he was in the prone, after you kicked his legs apart, you walked away, right? ,/

C13487

~(l)-;: \, (t)lc)-s
Witness: / ~,
After SOT_began to kick him is when I walked away.

Counsel:
You walked to back to Wher~and_Werej

Witness: b{t)-\ b(~)(t)~i
Yes.

Counsel: (7MU)
Did_sayanything then?

Witness: G-~..)
I didn't speak to_I spoke to"

Counsel:
And you said, "I don't like what's going on"?

Witness: Right.
~[b)-SJ ~(~lc)-)
Counsel: ~.
And then you went back with SOT _toescort that prisoner down to the search
area?

Witness:
Right.

Counsel:
And at that point he walked down to the search area with the two ofyou?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
When the EPW was on the ground, after you kicked his legs apart and put him in the
prone, you said that two individuals were holding his ankles, correct?

Witness:
Correct.

Witness:
And you said that SPC Canjar was sitting on an EPW, right?

Witness:
Right.

013488
Counsel:
You didn't see how that EPW got on the groillld, correct?

Witness:
That's correct.

Counsel:
You described a third incident with the five EPW s that you say were thrown on the
ground, correct?

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel:
That also happened out by the staging area, right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
That NCO was by himself out there at the staging area?

Witness:
Possibly not by himself, but he was the only one that was actually throwing them down.

Counsel:
Who else did you see out there with him?

Witness:
I didn't see anybody else out there.

Counsel:
And this happened after the EPWs were lined up out there?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
So the five ofthem were sitting in a line?

Witness:
They were standing in the line.

Counsel:
Okay the five ofthem are standing in a line?

013489

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Fifteen feet from the bus?

Witness:
This one was ..they changed the area where we started putting them. They cut a piece of
the engineer tape to where we could walk straight up and around, rather than go to the
end ofthe bus, come back across, and around.

Counsel:
Okay so someone cut a hole in the barbed wire, correct?

Witness:
The engineer tape.

Counsel:
The engineer tape, I'm sorry, it's not barbed wire there quite yet?

Witness:
Not in that point right.

Counsel:
So someone cut a hole in the engineer tape?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And that actually made the distance between the bus and the search area shorter, right?

Witness:
No it didn't make it shorter it just the path was shorter, but the distance was about the
same--fr9m the bus to the searching area you've still got the same distance, but rather
than going back here and around we just went straight out--so it just made the path
shorter.

Counsel:
That area where the hole was in the fence was close to the bus than the other staging area
was, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

013490
DOD 15148
Counsel:
So these five guys are lined up and you're standing at the bus with-' right? Near

-(saw)
Witness:
Yes.

Counsel: ) ~)
Did you hear_s~yanything at that point?

Witness:
No.

Counsel: frfAfr..R \
SSG'" l'7' .J

Witness:
I didn't hear anybody say anything.

Counsel:
Did you have to put anyone on the ground that night?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
. Any EPW?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:.
Did you tell another soldier that you had put an EPW on the ground that night?

Witness:
I did not tell them I had to put another one on the ground, no.

Counsel:
There was lots ofcommotion out there, right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
People were running around everywhere, right?

013491
DOD 15149
Witness:
Not necessarily running around, but yes.

,','
Counsel:
At some point you started running with EPWs, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
So you're the MP that's running with the EPWs , right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Some people--some EPWs were being taken offthe bus one-to-one escort, right?

Witness:
Right.

Counsel:
Some EPW s had two escorts on them, right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Now you kicked EPW's legs apart before, right?

Witness:
Yes. ",

Counsel:
On one ofthe first the 223rd did you guys had an EPW that you had to put in the prone,
right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And the EPW was in the prone, correct?

Witness:
Correct.

C13492
DOD 15150
Counsel:
And you were standing over him, right?

Witness:
I was standing near him, yes.

COllllseI:
Okay near him. And the EPW put his legs together?

Witness:
Right.

Counsel:
And so you kicked him to put them back apart?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And one ofthe in processing NCOs told you, hey you shouldn't...that's not how you
should do that, correct?

Witness:

Yes.

Counsel:
When everything was said and done that night, you talked to SaT•••alright?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And it was in front ofyour company TOe, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And SSG~showedup at some point as well?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And saT-.told you some things that you didn't see, correct?

C13493

DOD 15151
Witness:
That's correct.

Counsel:
Like for example--she told you that when the bus stopped he saw soldiers jump on the
bus, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And you didn't see that yourself?

Witness:
That's right.

Counsel:
'Cause you were pulling security to the front when the convoy had stopped, right?

Witness:
Yes, well originally when the convoy had stopped we had to turn around and come back,
and then I was pulling security on the front, so I didn't see that.

Counsel:
And that's' something he told you?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And you told him some ofthe things that you'd seen, right?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
That he hadn't necessarily seen, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And you also talked to SOT _later, right?

Witness:
Yes, at some point in time I did.

C13494

DOD 15152
Counsel:
But you can't remember ifit was that night or maybe the next day?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And he told you that he didn't see anything, right?

Witness:
Right.

Counsel:
'Cause he was busy dealing with the property?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And you told him well this is what I saw, correct?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
You guys didn't actually go back to your company area right after the escorts were over,
correct?

Witness:
That's correct.

Counsel:
'Cause there was a problem with the property?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
As far as you know someone had signed for something that either didn't show up or there
was some mistake with the paperwork?

Witness:
Yes.

C13495

DOD 15153
Counsel:
So you all stayed there together, right?

Witness:
That's right.

Counsel:
And you didn't talk about what you saw then, right?

Witness:
Not that 1 can recall.

Counsel:
'Cause at that point the focus was on taking care ofthe property?

Witness:
The property issue.

Counsel: ~{L)-~; b(~)~)-4 SPC _Ijust want to go back one more time to this incident with the rapist?
Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
You said that you were escorting this individual and the MSG ran up and pushed him to
the ground?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
And then be kicked... she kicked him in the groin?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel:
Five times?

Witness:
Approximately five times.

Counsel:
And then he rolled onto his side?

013496
DOD 15154