Article 32 Proceedings re: Transcript of Hearing in the Matter of Specialist Timothy F. Canjar

This document is part of the transcript of the Article 32 proceeding against Spc. Timothy F. Canjar who was accused of detainee abuse at Camp Bucca, Iraq in May 2003. See ACLU RDI 1322 and the other documents following in sequence.

Doc_type: 
UCMJ
Doc_date: 
Saturday, November 15, 2003
Doc_rel_date: 
Thursday, June 30, 2005
Doc_text: 

[The Article 32 hearing held with witnesses at Camp Doha, Kuwait reconvened at 0800 hours, 01 September 2003.1
DIRECT EXAMINATION
6(0-4; 1()01
SPC 1101111Milla, U.S. Army, was called as a witness for the government, was sworn and testified as follows:
Questions by the trial counsel: MAJOINSIO kt) -2 i WO) -1-
Counsel:
You are iis that correct? W')-'t; ti {'l) C()-7

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
You're currently assigned to the 320 TH MP Battalion?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
And where is the 320TH stationed right now?

Witness:
In Baghdad.

Counsel:
Do you recall the night of twelfth May of this year?

Witness:
Yes.

Counsel: On that evening, you remember a conversation that your husband had with Sergeant eilleirin your presence?
Witness:
We didn't have it with her, but she was in there talking about it.

Counsel:
Did you hear what Sergeantiallaphad to say? (

Witness:
Yes.

013406
Counsel:
Could you tell the investigating officer what she had to say?

-5
Witness: W4) (q)(6-s-
She was talking about their mission and how they had escorted some prisoners. When they got them off the bus, Sergeant had to--he flipped a prisoner. Specialist Canjar had to put a prisoner on the groun orcefully because the prisoners had twisted his wrist. And she was talking about the three females, they had the prisoners who raped , and the prisoners didn't like what they were doing to them.

0)-3
Counsel: (.
When you talk about the three females, who are the three females you are referring to?

Witness:
She never gave names, but the only three females we knew that were on the mission were
Sergeant..., Sergeant and Sergeant

i(4) -4 ; 56)(e) -
k6)-9; b(a)o-c-i
Counsel:
When you said the EPWs didn't like what happened to them, what happened to the
EPWs?

Witness:
All she said is they were kicking them. She didn't specify where.

i
Counsel: (9 (4)-s-; k9 ( .4)(0-5
After that incident, did Master Sergeant lin ever approach you or your husband in
your presence?

Witness:
She did. When we were sitting outside the ALOC she approached us. She advised my
husband to get an attorney. CID wanted to question him again. She said to get an
attorney because they were going to do a lie detector.

Counsel:
Did she ever ask your husband questions about that night?

Witness:
She asked him what he saw. He said nothing. She winked and said that's right.

b)(4) —1
Counsel:i
Specialistaftthat's all I have for you right now, but answer any questions the
defense counsel might have for you.

013407

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the defense counsel: CPT MS 4 (')'
Counsel:i(0-4 t9 ( (0-1
Specialist am.you said she was bragging about what happened on the night of the
twelfth, correct?

Witness:
I don't know if it was bragging, sir. She was smiling and just started talking about it.

Counsel:
Later on you said that your husband told you that he had bragged that he had kneed or
kicked one of the prisoners in the leg or the testicles, on the bus, correct?

Witness:
He told me that after he made a statement. I didn't know about that until...we were in
Arifjan when he told me about that.

Counsel:
He told you the reason he said that is because he didn't want to seem like a wimp,
correct?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
And you said that when Sergean came in, she said that the females did
something to the guy that raped

-i-Witness: Yes sir.
Counsel:
And that he didn't like what they were doing to them.

Witness:
The prisoner didn't like what they were doing to him.

Counsel:
And you said that she did not mention the names of the females, correct?

Witness:
No she did not.

C13408
Counsel:
You just assumed that she meant the three females from the 320 TH?

Witness:
Yes sir. We didn't find out that there was another female on the mission so, like a week
afterwards, we knew that there was another female on the mission.

Counsel:

She never clarified exactly who she was talking about, correct?

Witness:

No sir.

k9(?) Counsel: And you made a sworn statement in front of Major= on thirteen June, is that right?
Witness:
Somewhere in there, sir. I'm not sure what day it was.
60-5; to(7(0
Counsel: Okay.ithat statement you said iSergeantisaid that Master Sergeant Sergeantiand Sergeantihad to take the EPW that had raped
and theidid not like what they were doing to him.
Witness: Yes sir. \D(6);3;Vlye)-3 Vc)-1-1­; 1,0)0
Counsel:

But that's not exactly what was said, correct?
toCom-2_
Witness:
No sir. I said that and then I told Majorithat I assumed that she meant the three
females, and then I said the three females names.

Counsel:
And what was told to you was three females, correct?

Witness:
Yes sir.i

12(6)-6; 6(1)61-c
Counsel:
And were you present the entire time that Sergeant was speaking in the tent?

Witness:
Yes sir.

013409

DOD 15067
Counsel:
And you said that they were kicking him, but she did not say where he was being kicked?

Witness:
Correct.

Counsel:
I don't have any other questions for you. Some of the other defense counsel may have
questions.

Questions by the defense counsel: MASSER
141)(4-1
Counsel:i\2 (6)"( ;
Specialistali, you said you saw your husband right after he finished his detail, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And he didn't look upset, did he?

Witness:
Not really ma'am.

Counsel:
He was tired?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
He told you some other things that happened on that trip, didn't he, such as the EPWs on
the bus were looking out the window even thought they were told not to?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

(-1)(c)-5-
Counsel:
And he also told you that they wet isobeying orders not to look up and they were
actually looking at Sergeant , correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: And that Sergeant was the NCOIC on the bus?
013410
DOD 15068
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And she had to yell at them to make them comply with the rules of the bus?
Witness: Yes ma'am. Counsel: And did she tell you that the prisoner that Specialist and Specialist Canjar had to put on the ground...she did say that they had to do it because he twisted Canjar's wrist? A-ut; 143)(c )
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And did she also tell you that he was six feet tall, weighing over two hundred seventy pounds?
Witness: No ma'am she did not.
Counsel: Did she tell you that that prisoner broke his hand restraints while they were escorting him?
Witness: No ma'am.
Counsel: Did she tell you that pushed the prisoners head down to try to gain control of him before they put him on the ground?
Witness: No ma'am. (sit."-A Counsel: She tell you that the EPW pushed his head back up and kicked INSankle?
Witness: No ma'am.
Counsel: And then that's when Canjar had to go assist.. 013411
DOD 15069

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Thank you I have no more questions.

Questions by the defense counsel: CPT MN
Counsel:
Your husband, Specialist was sent down to Arifjan, right?
Witness:
Yes ma'am.
Counsel:

You remember when he was sent down to Camp Arifjan?

Witness:
I think it was the beginning of June, I'm not sure exactly when it was.

Counsel:
Before he went down to Ari fjan, you talked about the escort mission and what happened
on the bus, right?

Witness:
Briefly. We never got into it.

Counsel:
He told you that he didn't assault anybody?

Witness: ­Right.

Counsel:
He didn't do anything and he didn't see anything.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Then he was sent down to Arian, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

013412

DOD 15070
Counsel: After he left, you went and talked to CID, right?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: When you went to talk to CID, CID told you that your husband was lying?
Witness: They told me that everybody was lying.
Counsel: So everyone involved in the escort mission was lying.
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And they told you that your husband was involved in what happened?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Or your husband had seen what happened?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And that he had lied to them about it? i •..
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And that they were going to make sure that everybody that was involved in the escort mission was going to go to jail, right?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: You were pretty concerned about your husband at that point, right?
013413
DOD 15071

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You called him on the phone to find out what was going on, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You were upset because you thought he wasn't truthful with you?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
So the two of you argued a little bit about what CID told you versus what your husband
had originally told you, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you told your husband we need to go back and think about what you remember from
that night, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
We need to go back and try and think about the details of what happened?

Witness:

Yes ma'am. Counsel: 6(0 i9o)(6)
About a week or two later, you talked to Major one of the prosecutors in this
case, right?
Witness:
Yes ma'am.
Counsel:
He came to see you in Camp Bucca?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
013414

Counsel:
And he told you that he reviewed your husband's statement, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then you gave him a sworn statement, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
After you gave him that sworn statement, your husband came back up to Camp Bucca,
right?

Witness:
It was about two or three weeks later that he came back up, ma'am.

Counsel: misA(001, 19(4)01
Thank you Specialist

.
2(4)-)-i Questions by the defense counsel: CPT MINI
Counsel:
Specialist I want to talk to you a little bit about the conversation that your
husband and y • self had with Master Sergeani. You said that you were at the
ALOC and she approached you in the truck?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And she said to your husband that OD wanted to interview him again?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. She said that CID wanted to interview all of them again, ma'am.

Counsel:
All of them again?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: And she told your husband that he aught to get an attorney, correct?
013415
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: This is not the first person that told you he needed to get an attorney.
Witness: No it was not, ma'am.
Counsel: The Sergeant Major of your unit was telling him to get an attorney? Witness: i t(0; 1)(5A-1 Sergeant Major, Majori..mostly the corrections officers and the police officers, and some of the lawyers were the ones that were saying to get an attorney before they talk to CID again.
Counsel: Okay, so this was nothing out of the ordinary? This is what everybody else had been saying, that he should get an attorney.
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: As a matter of fact, all of his leadership was advising all of these individuals to get an attorney, correct?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: So your husband was not at all concerned, or you, about this comment?
Witness: No ma'am.
Counsel: Now, after she said that, then she asked him what he saw that night, correct?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And he said he had seen nothing, correct?
013416
DOD 15074

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
That is what he had told you all along, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that is actually what he'd put in his statement to CID, that he saw nothing, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
That was the end of the conversation, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Weren't concerned at all about this conversation.

Witness:
Not at all.

Counsel:
It was a non-event to you.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Neither you or your husband ever felt that there was any sort of pressure being put on you
to say anything different.

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Thank you.

I/O:
Re-direct?

013417
DOD 15075
REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by the trial counsel: MAJIMIII. 100- a ; 6 4)(6 -L
i
Counsel: k9)-It Y,1)(c)-Li
Specialist 11111.back on that conversation that occurred near the ALOC...about the
other folks that advised your husband to get lawyers, did they ever come up to your
husband and say you've seen nothing right?

Witness:
No not at all.

Counsel:
When they told him to get a lawyer and say that you've seen nothing right, did they wink
at him?

Witness:
No sir.

Counsel:
Okay. You were not on the bus coming back from Tallil to Camp Bucca?

Witness: I was not on the mission.i• L(6-C.; (3)(c"--
Counsel:
When Sergeantall icame in to talk to your husband on the night of the mission,
what was her mood when she described what happened on the mission?

Witness:
She was just smiling. She didn't really have a mood.

Counsel:
That's all I have sir.

I/O:
Anyone on the defense?

Defense counsel:
No, sir.

Questions by the Investigating Officer: LTC NM
I/O:i)6(-101/)tc)--11i)0(6)-; 1)1c-) -5 Specialist 11111111 Master Sergeant came up to your husband and advised him to get an attorney, at a later time after the mission?
013418

DOD 15076
Witness: Yes sir.i (6)--5-; Nti) I/O: And then it was Master Sergeant inthat asked your husband if he had seen anything; he said no; she said that's right and winked at him, according to your story?
Witness: Yes sir.
I/O: Okay. Your husband said at some point that he had kneed and kicked an EPW on the bus, is that correct?
Witness: Afterwards, yes sir. He said that.
I/O: And he said that...?
Witness: He said it to Sergeant NM wanting her to think that he wasn't a wimp.
I/O: When did that exchange take place?
Witness: I'm not sure when that happened, sir. I wasn't there.
I/O: When did you find out about that?
Witness: I found out when he was in Camp Ari fjan.
I/O: • Some time later?
Witness: Yes sir.
I/O: I understand that Specialist Canjar's prisoner...there seemed to be some justification for his action, is that correct?

013419

DOD 15077
Witness:
SergeantIIIIIID said that Specialist Canjar had his wrist twisted. That's why they
had to force the prisoner on the ground.

I/O:
And then there were some other circumstances as well?

Witness:
I didn't know about them sir.

I/O:
Okay. Did you ever talk to Sergeant11.011. or Sergeant..

t, besides the conversation that you indicated here?
Witness:
We talked a lot. We never talked about the case. Just talked as friends, and as an NCO.

I/O:
Ever spoken with any of the other accused or any other members of your Battalion with
regard to this incident?

Witness: No sir.
I/O:
No one's come to you with information, besides what you've indicated here?

Witness:
No sir.

I/O:
Anyone else have further questions?. .

Questions by the trial counsel: MAJOINIM
Counsel:
Do you remember Sergeant isay anything about Sergeant

Witness:
Just that he had flipped a prisoner.

Counsel:
That's all I have.

I/O: Anyone else? Specialist thank you.
0134:'0

DOD 15078
[The witness was duly warned, dismissed and withdrew from the room.]
DIRECT EXAMINATION
(0 6 (.00-iD
SPCi U.S. Army Reserve, was called as a witness for the government, was sworn and testified as follows:
-
Questions by the trial counsel: MAJ..'".19 (1)(c) -
Counsel:
You are Specialiste...0 6 (0-4; ()0-'1

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Currently assigned to the 320 TH MP Battalion?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:

Where is the 320TH stationed right now?
Witness:
Abu Garab prison, twenty miles southwest of Baghdad.

Counsel:
Do you recall the mission to pick up prisoners on the twelfth of May?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
On that mission, on the return trip from Talil, where were you?

Witness:
I was the unloader on the bus, the loader/unloader position.

Counsel:

How did the EPWs behave on the bus ride back? 6(4) -5T -s
(‘?')0
Witness: We had some minor incidents such as talking, looking out the window. W ad one guy who wanted to stretch out his legs. We had one person look at Sergeant That was corrected by Sergeantimand Sergeaniellas
V)(0 -4: h(1)(e)-Y
013421

Counsel:
There was no fighting on the bus?

Witness:
No.

Counsel:
I'm sorry, could you speak up.

ib(‘)-5-;D6M -1; 0)6)1
Witness:
I apologize. e had some minor incidents such as talkin , oo t%

-I • out the window. We had one gu who wanted to stretch out his legs. We ione perso look at Sergeant That was corrected by Sergeant iand Sergeant
Counsel:
When they were corrected, how did they respond to the corrections?

Witness:
The only one that kept repeating his problem was the one that kept stretching his legs
across the line. Everyone else seemed to have fallen in line.

Counsel:
I'll take you now to the unloading of the bus at Camp Bucca. Could you describe that
process for us?

Witness:
The bus pulled up the in-processing area. Everyone got off the bus except for me. My
job was to unlo the prisoners from where they were seated and hand them off to
Sergeantiwho was waiting at the bottom of the stairs.

Counsel: -
You performed this task for the entire unloading of the bus?

Witness:
Yes sir. My whole job was on the bus.

Counsel:
As you are doing this job, could you see outside?

Witness:
No sir. The windows were closed. The only time I peeked out was when I stuck my
head out the door.

Counsel:
Could you hear anything?

013422
Witness:
You can hear screams and I did hear a stop resisting one time.

Counsel:
Can you tell me what type of screams did you hear?

Witness:
Male voices screaming is the best I can give you sir.

Counsel:
After you were done unloading the bus, what did you do?

Witness:

After the bus was completely, oaded, I searched the bus for anything they may have
left behind. Sergeant came on the bus and said that was it. We got off the bus
and I went back to sleep.
Counsel:

After the mission, did you speak with anyone else about what happened on the bus?
610-C3 6M (c-) --5.
Witness:
After unloading our vehicles, I ran into Sergeant and she made a statement to
me.

Counsel:
What did she tell you?

Witness:
She had said she had kicked and kneed someone in the ball ..the three females that
escorted one of the rapists. And, that she saw Sergeant iflip somebody.

Counsel:
When she said she kicked somebody in the balls, who did she say she kicked in the balls?

Witness:
The comment was directed towards one of the rapists. She said that the three females had
escorted one of the rapists, and that she had kicked him in the leg or ball region.

Counsel:
And the rapist wasn't part of your unit?

Witness:
No he was one of the prisoners.

q0-s ; 19(3)(6-s

Counsel:
And what else did she tell you? sorry, you mentioned a couple things after you
talked about Sergeant
Witness: 1§ovvt)

She had mentioned the flipping of...she said she saw Sergeant iflip somebody, and that she had kicked somebody in the balls.
Counsel:
And then what did you do after that conversation?

Witness:
After that conversation, I found my wife. I talked to her a little bit and then I went to
bed.

(sovvt)
Counsel:
Did you...have you subsequent conversations with Master Sergeantaillit
Witness: Excuse me sir?
onNt)
Counsel:
Did you have conversations with Master Sergeant after that, after the mission?

`
Witness:
No sir.

Counsel:
You didn't see her in a white pickup, when you were in a white pickup with your wife?

Witness:
That wasn't after the mission sir. That was a couple weeks later, there after. After we'd
been questioned by CID.

Counsel:
Okay. You want to tell me about that conversation?

Witness: S ovv43
What h. happened was my wife and I were in a white pickup at the ALOC. Sergeant

stopped by, as many others have, advised me to seek out a lawyer for question purposes. We got into a conversation, basically the words were something to the effect of, the way I phrase it was, you didn't see anything right. And I said yes that's right; I didn't see anything. She winked at me. I didn't think it of anything. I thought it was just her looking at me. That's it.
013424
i12(6-5 ; 19Wc1—s
Counsel:

Okay. And aft that, or the day before the CID interview, did you encounter Master Sergeantiagain?

6(04; 6(?)(0-,
Witness: Yes sir. I heard a rumor the iore we were supposed to go to CID. And I went over to their tent area.iened as I talked to a few people prior to this. And what it boiled doi:eantiand I walked over toward the tent. Sergeantiok -i d went towards RU. I spoke to Sergean who was on the back pat abou my f. ily and other things. And we went up ..it was getting late so I went ound the i f the tent. There was five people in e the tent plus one other. Th -e was SeriSpecialistit Canjar, Sergeantid SergeantiThey were all sittiient. And there was one other ass -d it was Specialist iIt'siw sitting on the floor. I went iniI told themior that I h d, thaties of Sergeant
flipping somebody an mebod assaul g a m iy kicking him in the balls.
Counsel:
Could you describe the layout of that tent where this meeting was occurring?

Witness: It was towards the front of the tent iwas Sergearitillipand Sergeant layout or living space. It w ordoned off by ponchos, like a ponchoiAnd it was just her...Sergeant ilived on...when you walked in it waithe left, Sergeant
was on the right and they were in a, kind of like a s -circle around the area, in the front o
6(6)-q; 1)Vc3-1
Counsel:
How large was the tent?

Witness:
It's a GP large.

Counsel:
Okay. And then how large is the area where you saw the meeting?

Witness:
I couldn't, enough for a cot and a walkway between each of the beds. I couldn't even
begin to guess for you.

Counsel:
Was there anyone else in the tent on the other side?

Witness:
No they were all out in the back enjoying a good time.

013425
Counsel:
I apologize. Let me take you back to the bus again. You said that you poked your head
outside at one point?

Witness:i 19(‘)-9). 19(1)01
Yes sir. When I heard the stop resisting an then a scream, I was in between
transitioning for a prisoner for Sergeant iSo I popped my head out to look out
towards the...I looked towards the rear of the bus and I saw what appeared to be two
male soldiers with a male EPW on the ground.

10W-C• 6(1)0-c
Counsel:
During a conversation with Sergeant idid you ever tell her that you had
kicked one of the prisoners?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Why did you do that?

Witness:
It was just to bolster my image. I was lying.

6(0-s: 0)0-5-
Counsel:
You were lying to Sergeant

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Are you telling the truth today?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Okay. Sir that's all I have for right now.

I/O:
Defense?

013426

CROSS-EXAMINATION

19(0 ; 6(1)(0 -z
Questions by the defense counsel: CPT...1r
Counsel:
One moment. Specialistiyou are in First Platoon, right?

Witness: 6fd) -4; 1(1)(c)-1
Yes ma' am.

Counsel:
Sergeant First Classiis your Platoon Sergeant?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Do you remember who detailed you to go on this mission?

Witness: 664`t)
As I stated to you earlier today, to my best recollection, it was either Sergeant...Igor
Sergeant As of to when, I do not know.

Counsel:
Okay, but it came from your platoon, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
When you got to Talil, Sergeant gave you a briefing about the EPWs you were
going to be transporting, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
What did he tell you about the EPWs who was going to be on the bus?

Witness:
He told me...he pointed out to me, by using gestures instead of, so not to alert the EPWs
who was a high priority; who was a low priority. Such as what... and their background as

to the high priorities.
Counsel: Okay. Who were the high priorities?
013427
Witness:
We had a General, a Major that trained the Fedahyeen soldiers. We had two FIFs,
previous soldiers. Eight people that supposedly sprung their buddies out of a jail. A
Major and a Captain from the police force. And two car dealers, or something to that

effect, had a large sum of money on them.

Counsel:
Can you remember what he told you about the interpreter?

Witness:
My apologies. Yes there was an interpreter. He was there during, supposedly there,
during the interpretation of the 507 TH Maintenance Company.

Counsel:
During the interrogation?

Witness:
The interrogation of the 507 TH Maintenance Company.

• Counsel: It was going to be your responsibility to load the bus, right?
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And when you're loading the bus, you're the only person on the bus, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You'd never loaded a bus before, right?

Witness:
Not prior to this day, no ma'am.

Counsel:
Because it was your first escort mission, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And the guidance was low priority in the back, right?

013428

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And high priority in the front.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And Sergeantialso told you to pack' em in there pretty tight, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am, to leave a reactionary gap.

Counsel:
Okay. So you left a large buffer so that you guys could react?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. So we don't get overrun.

Counsel:
Sergeanti111,1p was the one that was determining who, in what order the prisoners got
on the bus, ri .

Witness:
That was prior to me. He was at the base of the door handing me the prisoners ma'am

Counsel:
So your job was just to put them in their seats after he gave them to you?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You said that the Iraqi police Captain and Major were high priority, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And the Major who trained the Fedahyeen, he was high priority as well, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

013429
DOD 15087
Counsel:
And actually, the Major that trained the Fedahyeen was on crutches, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
He was the last one that you sat down on the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am, he was in the aisle-way ma'am.

Counsel:
So he was in the aisle-way and the Iraqi police Captain and Major were behind him in the
aisle-way, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. They were in line in the aisle-way ma'am.

Counsel:
And when you loaded them onto the bus, they didn't want to have to sit three to a seat,
right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
So you had to tell them and move them to get them to sit, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
So your first step is tell them to sit, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then you actually had to move some of the prisoners to get them to sit where you
wanted them to sit?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: And they didn't want to be quiet either, right?
013430
DOD 15088
Witness: Not during loading process ma'am. They were talking amongst each other ma'am.
Counsel: Okay. Now you said you had some problems during the ride, right?
Witness: Yes ma'am. They were small problems such as talking, people looking out the window, and as I said before, the Fedahyeen kept stretching his legs past our imaginary line that we had drawn.
Counsel: Okay. So the guy on the crutches, that was sitting in the aisle...
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Kept moving his legs over the line where you told him
Witness: Not to, yes ma'am.
Counsel: You told him quit doing that many times during the trip, right?
Witness: Not me personally, but a bunch of us ma'am, yes.
Counsel: Okay. He just kept kicking his feet out.
Witness: He kept stretching out and, yes ma'am.
Counsel: Okay. The bus stopped at some point, right?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And, as far as you know, you weren't able to get in touch with that lead 223 vehicle, correct?
013431
DOD 15089

Witness:
That is above my rank ma'am.

Counsel:
The signal for problems on the bus is putting on the hazards and pulling over, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that signal applies if there's a mechanical problem, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And it also applies if there's a problem on the bus with controlling EPWs?

Witness:
To the best of my knowledge, yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. So same signal for both...i is(

Witness:i A ici/-
Universal ma'am.i

`(?) .I9
Counsel:
Okay. The bus stopped and you and igot off the bus to pull security, correct?

6(6)--4 (/() (4.-11 (cti
Witness:i
The bus stopped. Sergeant -Specialist anicame up to the vehicle and knocked
on the door. Somebody yelled out and told them that it was just an air hose break. That
was the last I saw them and that's when.", and I hopped off the bus and pulled side
security.

Counsel:
Okay. You didn't seep and... get on the bus, right?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
And you guys actually got off the bus and pulled security outside the bus, right?

013432
DOD 15090
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
As you were...they said...I'm sorry, Sergeant. said everything's okay; let's go?

Witness:
When we got further along, yes ma'am. He had said the driver fixed it; everything's
good, let's go. We collapsed towards the door. At that time there was a bunch of people
speaking, just talking. Sergeant ampand Sergeantibeing one of them, just
talking right by the door. We hoppe\l on the busie got ready to leave.

6)-r: t9(/) C4 -s
Counsel:
So you talked to Sergeant while the bus was stopped, right?

Witness:
Yes. We just had chit-chat over basic stuff.

Counsel:
He appeared to be calm?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Wasn't upset about anything?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Basically, he asked you what's the setup like in there, right?

Witness:
He had asked that...he had actually come ()lithe bus for a couple...like a minute or two.
He wanted to see the setup and asked hbw it was setup, that kind of thing. If there were
any problems. I gave him the breakdown of what was going on and then he hopped off
the bus.

Counsel:
He also asked you how things were had been going on the bus, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: And you told him that some of the EPWs weren't listening to you guys.
013433

DOD 15091
SCC) s; Vt(c)—g—
Witness: Yes ma'am. old him that me were talking; some were looking around and then we had the F ahyeen who wo stretch his legs, and the Captai ookin at Sergeant
at was corre r by somebody, either Serior Sergeant
lo(i-tt; 1,(1)(c)-y
Counsel:
And you talked to Master S.. i at that time?

Witness:
I talked to Master Sergean ibefore I got on the bus ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. So she never got on the bus?

Witness:
As far as my recollection, no ma'am.

Counsel:
How did she appear?

Witness:
Normal, collected, happy, no problems ma'am.

Counsel:
She upset?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:i.i.
Now your job when the bus stopped at Camp Bucca was then to unload, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And again, when you're unloading, you're the only soldier on the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
The first person that left the bus was that Major that was sitting in the front with the
crutches, right?

013434
DOD 15092
Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:i
The one that wasn't listening prior?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You told him to get up?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And he wouldn't get up, would he?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Then you gave him a hand signal to get up?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Lifted your arms up and said get up?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And he still wouldn't move, right?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
So you actually had to physically pick him up, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

.7
013435
Counsel:
And he wasn't cooperating with you as you were picking him up, was he?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:

Basically refused to move, even as you were trying to carry him, correct?

Witness:

Yes ma'am.

Counsel:

And you had to carry him all the way down the aisle, right?

Witness:

To the front of the door, yes ma'am.

Counsel:

Did you have to pull any other EPW up?

Witness:

As I said before, with you guys, I think if any, there was one, if any.

Counsel:

Did you push any EPW down the aisle of the bus?

Witness:

No ma'am. I did not forcibly push anybody down that aisle, ma'am.

Counsel:
Did you run with any of the EPWs down the aisle of the bus?
Witness:
No ma'am. No ma'am. I stomped my feet to make it...I don't know the proper
wording...but I stomped my feet to intimidate them, ma'am.

Counsel:

Okay. But you didn't push them from behind to get them to move?

Witness:
I had my hand on one of...two of them on their back and I did not forcibly push, but I
had my hands so that they would not come back towards me ma'am.

Counsel:
Now as you're unloading, the curtains on the bus are closed, correct?

013436

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you had two responsibilities at that time, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You had to unload the EPWs...?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then you had to make sure that the bus was still secure in the back, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Because you were the only soldier left on the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You were focused on the bus, and-what you needed to do on the bus, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you said you stuck your head out the front door once, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you couldn't see what was going on?

C13437
DOD 15095
Witness:
I saw, as I said, I looked towards the rear of the bus...I saw what appeared to be two U.S.
male soldiers on the ground with one male EPW, but there was a light set that blinded my
vision, also. I could make out the bodies of the soldiers because of the uniform, and the
other was a prisoner because of the clothing he was wearing. But as for who, what, when
and where, they were so far towards the rear of the bus...how far I was already extended
out of the bus, I could not see anymore.

Counsel:
Okay. So you couldn't tell who it was?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
And you couldn't tell what they were doing?

Witness:
No ma'am.

600

Counsel:
And you looked out that same door that Sergeant iwas standing at, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. Instead of peering out of the bus like I did, he was right below my view.

Counsel:
Now once all the EPWs were unloaded, you went back and searched the bus, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. From front to rear...

Counsel:
And you found some medical tape, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am. I found what appeared to be one long enou h role to...medical tape is what
we use to secure the prisoners. Or I should say the 744 T , they didn't have flexi-cuffs. I
found a long enough piece that should have been on one EPW, ma'am.

Counsel:
So you found a broken restraint on the bus?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

013438

DOD 15096
(tkiXo-c
Counsel:
Now, afterwards, you said you spoke to Sergeant MU right?
Witness: This was after the whole thing. We were back in our living area, yes ma'am.
Counsel: That night?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: You spoke with Sergeant someone in the balls, rights? and you stated that she said that she kicked
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And your response to her was, hey I kneed somebody too, correct?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: You told her a lie.
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: To make yourself look tough, right?
Counsel: And you thought that she was telling you a lie?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: For the same reason, right?
Witness: Yes ma'am. 013439
DOD 15097

Counsel: Kind of make herself look tough?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: You knew Sergeant-before the twelfth of May, correct?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And kicking someone in the balls didn't seem like something she would be capable of doing, did it?
Witness: No ma'am.
Counsel: Cause she's quiet?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Kind of timid?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And that was the end of your conversation with Sergeant
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: That was it? Then you left to go find your wife?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Now a couple days after this, you talked to CID, right?
013440
DODDOD 15098

Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: You gave them a statement?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And then they moved you, the Command moved you down to Camp Ari fj an, correct?
Witness: Yes ma'am. I don't know the time frame, but it was pretty much a little while after that ma'am.
Counsel: So you gave your statement and then you were moved down.to Arifjan?
Witness: Yes ma'am. We were still at Bucca for a little while and then they started moving us.
Counsel: Can you remember about how long you up at Bucca in between?
Witness: I would say a month, doing details and other things.
Counsel: All right, and then after that they moved you down to Arifjan?
Witness: To the best of my recollection, yes ma'am.
Counsel: And your wife stayed up at Camp Bucca?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Now she called you from Camp Bucca, right?
Witness: Yes ma'axn. We talked on a cell phone which cost a lot. 013441
DOD 15099

Counsel:
She called you cause she had gone to talk to CID, right?

Witness:
I had asked her actually, while I was at Arifjan, I had asked her to go and...I wanted to
add to my statement. She went to see CID and she had called me up. Pretty much a few
times, but one day in particular, yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. Before you left Arifjan, you told your wife, I didn't see anything and I didn't do
anything wrong, right?

Witness:
Before I left Arifjan, I told her that I didn't see anything and I didn't do anything wrong.
That's right ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. And after she talked to CID, she called you and said, hey they're telling me that
you were involved.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
She was pretty upset, wasn't she?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
It's something that you guys discussed and argued about on the phone, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And she told you, what you need to do now is go back and think about all the details of
what happened.

Witness:
She asked to go over in my mind the incident the day of, and there after, and anything I
can come up with I should think about it.

Counsel: To see if there were any new details that you remember?

013442

DOD 15100
Witness: Yes ma'am.
LW-1

k9P-2-1
Counsel:
Then after that, you talked to Major.. right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: F wwt_
Majoring and Colonel sat in as well?

Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel:
And then that's when you did that second sworn statement, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Now it's your understanding that you have immunity from prosecution, right?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And it's your understanding that you can't be prosecuted for anything that you might
have done on the bus, right?

Witness:i•
I didn't do anything on the bus, but yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay. Or if you told CID something that was incomplete or untruthful, you can't be
prosecuted for that either, right?

Witness:
At both times when I made a statement, at that point when I made a statement, I was
truthful to the whole point and extent, but yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Okay, except that you left out some of the details the first time?

013443
Witness: Ma'am I was flustered and I was getting...I was completely truthful with what I can remember at the time. Yes ma'am.
Counsel: Okay. That's my question. You went back, and later, there were new details.
Witness: Yes ma'am. Counsel:i 19(0 -11; (1)(61 Thank you Specialist lie
Questions by the defense counsel: CPT 11111111111 144)-ta
Counsel: SpecialistiI want to talk to you a little bit about this conversation that you say you had with M er SergeantYou said you were sitting in the truck when she approached you?
Witness:i\96)-4 Yes ma'am. ()(c)`1
Counsel: And you said that she advised you that you aught to get an attorney?
Witness: As many others, yes ma'am.
Counsel: Okay. You said many others had already told you aught to get an attorney?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: That was other members of your Command?
Witness: Yes ma'am.
Counsel: And you took that as her taking care of you?
Witness: Yes ma'am. 013444
DOD 15102

Counsel:
You didn't see that as any sort of coercion or anything, just that she was telling you that
you ought to get an attorney?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And then, you said that you discussed whether or not you had seen anything, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And you told her you had not seen anything, correct?

Witness:
That's right ma'am.

Counsel:
And that's what you had already told CID, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that's what you had already told your wife, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
And that was end of the conversation, correct?

Witness:
That's right ma'am.

to (4).4 ; 400 _5-
Counsel:
And throughout that entire conversation, you just thought oft ras just a normal,
everyday conversation you would have with Master Sergeant

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel: Didn't take it as any sort of event, didn't feel coerced in any manner, correct?

013445
DOD 15103
Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Didn't say anything different as a result of this conversation?

Witness:
No ma'am.

Counsel:
Now you said she winked at you?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
You said that you thought that was part of her personality, correct?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

4-51 44-)0-s-
Counsel:
Normal thing you would see Master Sergeant 11‘1111do?

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
Didn't take it as any sort of coercion on her part?

Witness:
No ma'am.

iip-4; 10(4)(6-1
Counsel:
Thank you Specialist

149"Z ' 6M-2-
Questions by the defense counsel: MA iffie.1
Counsel:
Specialisiwhen you went to the tent to ask...you thou t ou had some
information peo e might like to know and you saw Specialistcorrect?

5aw...e. S
Witness: b(6-1; 6(C4--y
Yes ma'am.
013446

DOD 15104
Counsel:
And you told them you had some information about CID and what they were doing with
the investigation?

Witness:
It was a rumor ma'am.

Counsel:
A rumor, okay. And you said to us that you like rumors and you passed them along to
other people.

Witness:
Yes ma'am.

Counsel:
I have no further questions. 4(0-1.1 114-1_

Questions by the defense counsel: CPT
40-41 (,-)(e)-1
Counsel:
Specialist you testified about the Fedahyeen Major who...when he was on the
bus and you were getting ready to unload him, he refused to get up?

Witness:
Yes ma'am, or yes sir, I mean. My apologies sir.

Counsel:
And then you said that you hoped there was at least one other EPW that you kind of had
to push along, or you kind of had to forcefully had to move along through the aisle
because he wouldn't move.

Witness:
Yes sir. There was a few that night that just didn't want to move, sir.

Counsel:
Okay. So there was a numberi actually a number of EPWs, before they even got off the
bus, they were kind of like dead weight?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Okay. Thank you Specialist.

013447
DOD 15105
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by the trial counsel: MAJOINIF\9 (c -1; t2 (3) (6
Counsel:i-9; VIM 1 Specialist the first prisoner that, you say, didn't want to move, was he on crutches?
Witness:
Yes sir. He had crutches.

Counsel:
Okay. Did you know why he was on crutches?

Witness:
No sir. I don't know the extent of why he had the crutches.

Counsel:
At the end of the mission, you said you searched the bus?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Okay, and found some medical tape. Did you search the bus prior to letting the prisoners
board?

Witness:
Yes sir. It was searched prior to, and the only thing we found was a lot of water bottles
and leftover MBEs.

Counsel:
Okay. A lot of trash on the ground?

Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
Okay. Did you clean up all the trash?

Witness:
No sir. We didn't have trash bags available.

Counsel: Okay. So you just left all this trash?

013448
Witness:
Yes sir.

Counsel:
That's all I have sir.

I/O:
Anything else?

Defense counsel:
No, sir.i

t0(6)-4-; Questions by the Investigating Officer: LTC.'
vo: 'j -1; 617)(0-Y
)
Specialist_ when the bus pulled off to the side f the road, midway back to Camp
Bucca, you said that Sergeant and Specialis iame up to the bus, is that
correct?

Witness:
Yes sir.

I/O:
And you said that they asked what was happening?

Witness:
Yes sir. They were the rear security vehicle at the time, sir.

I/O:
Okay. And then who responded back to them?

Witness:
I don't know, it was a male voice over the top of my head so I would assume it was either
Sergeantall. or Sergeant'. sir.

I/O:
And then that voice said that everything is okay?

Witness:
It's just an air hose that broke.

I/O:
And then at that point, they left?

013449
Witness:
We were in the transition of doing a bunch of things at the time, so I didn't see them from
that point on.

I/O:
Where were you exactly on the bus?

Witness:
I was in the front of the bus and I was then asked to pull side security. So they asked me
to hop off with my M-16 and pull security on the side of the bus.

I/O: You were in the front of the bus doing what? 6.)
Witness:
I was just, I was a passenger at the time when this air hose broke. Sergeantillaand
Sergeantillilwere security at the time, with their shotgun.

I/O:
They were behind you, I guess?

Witness:
Yes sir.

I/O:
Okay. And then you went out and pulled security at that point?

Witness:
Yes sir.

I/O:
And where were you on the outside of the bus when you pulled security?

Witness:
I was between the front tire and the first cargo compartment.

I/O:
So if anybody had come on the bus after that point, you would have seen them or no?

Witness:
No sir. My vision was towards the desert in case anything would pop up, sir.

I/O:
So your not really sure if anybody came on the bus after that point or not?

013450

DOD 15108
Witness:
No sir. I couldn't tell you if anybody came on between that point in time, no sir.

I/O:
How long was that?

Witness:
Ten minutes sir.

I/O:
Okay. Who called you back in?

Witness: ‘90-q; Vwc) --4
Sergeant had screamed out, he had voiced out through the door that everything was all right, time to board up to go.
I/O:
Anybody say anything to you when you came back on the bus?

Witness:
I'm not understanding sir.

I/O:
Did anybody, did any of the other MPs say anything to you when you came back on the
bus?

Witness:
No sir. There was two comments made during the trip, but not when we got back on the
bus sir.

I/O:
So you just got back on the bus and took off and continued the mission?

Witness:
Yes sir.

I/O:
Okay. Since the twelfth of May, have you had any conversations or discussions with
anybody from the 223 RD MP Company?

Witness:
No sir.

I/O:
Did you aware...were you aware that they were even on the ground that night?

013451
Witness:
Yes sir. Two of them were on the bus and then the lead vehicle was theirs.

I/O:
And you knew them to be members of the 223 RD?

Witness:
There was an E-6, female E-4 gunner, an E-4 driver and then two Sergeants on the bus, as
far as my recollection sir.

I/O:ito M-z ; 6(1)(0--1, (G)._ ; L(3)61 -s-
When CPTiasked you about this onversation, or this brief conversation, I
guess you had with Master Sergeaniwas it typical for her to come up to you and
advise you to get an attorney?

Witness:
No sir. There had not been any incidents requiring such a talk.

I/O:
Is it part of her personality to wink at you?

Witness:
Yes sir. She's the kind of...kind of her personality. She always winks at the end of some
of her conversations towards me. It's just her personality. Her persona. It's part of her.

I/O:
Witness:
So she came up to you and advised you to get an attorney and then winked at you?

Witness: .
Yes sir. Basically, essentially part of it, yes sir. The end of her conversation she just
winked at us and that was the end of the conversation. I didn't take it as anything other
than that.

I/O:
Anybody have any further questions?

Vo 1)11A-1
Questions by the trial counsel: MA 11111111
Counsel: (&)-s; b (7-)(c) -r
That conversation with Master Sergeant iWitdidn't she also say you didn't see
anything, right?

Witness:
Yes sir. I said that prior to...

013452
DOD 15110
Counsel:
I just wanted to clear that up. Thank you Specialist.

(9N --4; 17()0-i
I/O:i Any further questions? Specialist thank you for your testimony
[The witness was duly warned, dismissed and withdrew from the . room.]
I/0:
Is that the end of the live witnesses we have?

Counsel:
The live ones, yes.

I/0:
Okay.

Counsel:
Then we have a CID agent who...I thought Ohio...are you sure it's eight hours?

I/O:
Special Agentlill hello can you hear me? 19(0 -1 ; 12M/0-.

Witness:
Yes,yes.

6 AA-9D
btf,)-z; L(4)(4 ) -L Special Agent.. this is Lieutenant Colonel iI'm calling from Camp Doha Kuwait. We're in the middle of the Article 32 hearing at I believe you were contacted about previously. We have the Government and Defense counsel here. If you're prepared, we'd like to go ahead and interview you and conduct that part of the hearing?
Witness:
I'm ready sir.
I/0: Okay. (1.)(0-z
Who we have her a o's the ours r the Government.
we hav aptain Major Captain and Captain

here as the counse for the accused. And I believe what we'll do is start with the Government counsel who will swear you in over the connection here, and then we'll begin the questioning here, okay?
Witness: All right sir.
013453

DOD 15111
\\O (b) -I; 6)(0 -I DIRECT EXAMINATION
Special Agent11111111111111 U.S. Army, was called as a witness for the
Government, was sworn and testified as follows:

/9(6)-1, I,(1)6)-2-
Questions by the trial counsel: MA 31•111111111z
'
Counsiii‘10 -1.; ()) (c) -I
Agenticould you give your full name for the record, please?

almow
witness:it).&A)
Counsel:
And your unit of assignment?

Witness:
44TH MP Detachment, CID.

Counsel:
And where is that unit currently stationed?

Witness:
I'm stationed with the forward element of that unit in Camp Bucca, which is located in
Umm Qasr, Iraq.

Counsel:
Okay. Thank you Special Agent. I've no questions for you, if you please answer any
questions that defense counsel pose.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the defense counsel: CPT — (b) -2-; 12(1)(c)
0-1; 1.11) rt4

Counsel:
Special Agentihis is Captain

I/O:
Can you hear him?

Witness:
I heard this is CaptiI heard the introduction.

I/O:
Okay.

C13454
13(1)(6-1i
¦ (04; ?) (4-1
Counsel:
Special Agent you had previously interviewed Specialiallbefore you
interviewed him in this case, is that correct?

Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And that was involving another allegation by an EPW that he'd been abused, correct?

Witness:

That is correct.

Counsel:

And the EPW was a minor?

Witness:

That is correct.

Counsel:

And it turned out that that EPW had actually been injuring himself, correct?

Witness: Yes that is correct. L(k) -ti -144)00-)
.6oh
Counsel:i
But what he actually claimed is that Specialist iad twisted his already injured arm,
correct?

Witness:

That is correct.

Counsel:

And then you helped conduct the investigation in this case, correct?
Witness:
That is correct.
Counsel:
And you did an interview, again, with Specialist-
Witness:
That is correct.

C13455
401; 136) (c)-11 Counsel: And since the time of that fi investigation, there have been several EPWs who have alleged abuse by Specialisicorrect?
Witness:
No, I cannot say with a high percent of certainty.

Counsel:

i
I'm sorry, can you repeat that answer? 610-'1 h(i) 0-1
Witness:
I was not aware of any other EPWs which alleged abuse against Specialist

Counsel:
Okay. So you don't remember...do you remember having a conversation with myself
and Captainia few weeks back?

Witness:

-
N:4 t) l7)(0-7
Yes I do.
Counsel: Okay. Do ou remember at that time saying that EPWs, they sort of got a hold of Specialisiname and sort of past it around, and everyone said they got abused by
Specialisi60-4: 6 (1)
Witness:i (s c)
I remember saying that they alleged abuse against a soldier by the name oil.
Whether or not they were directed towards, against Specialist um I forget his full
name, I cannot say. I do not know if they were directed...if there were any allegations
directed, specifically towards Specialisms or towards a soldier named..

Counsel:
Okay. But it is the case that EPWs were claiming that they were abused by a soldier
named." correct?

Witness:iCS)
've been told that have been alleging anything and everything against a soldier named

Counsel:ib() rDb(4) (c-.)
Okay. Thank you Agent Agent I don't have anymore questions for you.

I/O:i601i 6(1)(0)-z-
Majoring' is going to ask now.

C13456
DOD 15114
(4)-1, (/) 6) -)
Counsel: CP
I'm sorry. I did forget o ask you one other question. Special Agent All of
those allegations against some soldier namediall those allegations were ultimately
unfounded, correct?

Witness:
Yes. The allegations with the minor were unfounded, that is correct.

Counsel:i.01/44_S
Okay. And then all o the subsequent allegations by all the EPWs claiming that some
soldier namediabused them, all of those allegations were also unfounded, correct?

Witness:
To my knowledge, yes sir that's correct.

Counsel:
Okay. I don't have any more questions for you.

Questions by the defense counsel: MAJ 46)-1; () 6) -1-
\ot0-1;141)N -I, (0-2; 6(1)(c)-2.
Counsel:i1i
Special Agent this is Majoriall Can you hear me?

Witness:
Yes I can ma'am.

/17(0-4; 6 () 6-) -4
Counsel:i Okay. Sticking with the line of questioning on VIII you did interview a Specialist wi in this particular case, correct?
S4
That is correct.

Counsel:
And you took a sworn statement from him on May sixteenth, according to your IARR?

Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And you were the person who did the questioning ofillISpecialiselli and did the
Q and A on the question on his statement?

Witness: That is correct.
C13457
DOD 15115
,Cl)-, ; LA-Pfo -1i6.)-Li ; (1.) 0-y
Counsel:
At this ti I would like to have this ad tted into evidence. Just a moment Special
AgentiI'm moving to admitisworn statement into evidence.

[The sworn statement was marked as Exhibit 12 without objection.]
Counsel:
Without objection.

Counsel:
Okay, without objection. It's marked as exhibit twelve and I'm going to leave it with the
JO. I have no further questions, but another defense may. Please hold on.

Questions by the defense counsel: CPTANIMA, (6 - 2- ; 19 (4) ()-2
Counsel:
Special Agentalli\ ne of the defense counsels in the case.

this is Captai Can you hear me oka .
Witness:
Yes I can.

Counsel:
Agent on the sixteenth of May, did you do an interview with a Lieutenant Colonel

LU 't; 13()M --/ Witness: Yes. That is correct.
Counsel:
And he told you that he was present during the off-loading of the EPWs on the bus on the
twelfth of May, correct?

Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And he related to you that he did see any soldiers striking EPWs, correct?

Witness:
That is correct.

Counsel:
And he told you that the soldiers were complaining to him that the EPWs were being
combative and resisting, correct?

013458
DOD 15116
Witness:
If it is in my AAR, the details are in there.

Counsel:

1 9 (1)
i
Thank you Agent... 19
i I/O: Lio (c_z
captaining,' 19 (6)-I;
Defense counsel: CP, No, sir.
Major No, sir L(1' -)
(`)
I/O:
I don't have any questions. Ageniappreciate your time very much. I hope this
wasn't too much of an inconvenience for you; I hope everything's okay back home. And
please don't, if you have an opportunity, don't discuss your testimony with any other
witnesses or potential witnesses. And if we need anything, we will try and get back a
hold of you.

Witness:
Thank you sir. I can be reached at this number.

I/O:
All right. Thank you very much. Goodbye.

[The witness was duly warned, dismissed and ended his telephonic interview.]
[The Article 32 hearing recessed at 1705 hours 01 September 2003.]
013459

Doc_nid: 
3613
Doc_type_num: 
734